Permeable paver ?'s

[PSUscaper]

Hello,

wondering if anyone out there has any experiences installing permeable pavers.

I ask this because I'm starting to wonder if this is a possible market to be 'untapped'.

Over the years, I have noticed a enormous push by local towns and municipalites to cut back on impervious ground covers. I can think of many jobs right of the top of my head where this was a concern, and also a limiting factor to the job.

Many people want a paver driveway......but can't have it.

Could this be the answer.

Just wondering if anyone has any 'basic' information or personal experiences where they were able to break through the town's stringent impervious coverage codes by installing permeable pavers.

For example........we bid a job where the client had a swimming pool put in......in order to do so, they had to reduce the area of their already existing drive way to accomodate the new pool/patio area in the backyard. I wonder if we could of re-installed the driveway using permeable pavers and still met the requirements for the pool.

[Paul]

Steve lots has to do with what the town or village codes are. Some will let you do it others won't. What you do have to do to convince them is to show how much water you are going to pick-up, overcoming what they lost by installing the pool. This might mean you need to show how much water your pavers are going to hold under them and making sure that you are not feeding the storm water system "down stream"

[diginahole]

In parts of Toronto permiable pavements are our only option for hard surfaced driveways. I have installed a few Uni-ecostone driveways there. I have excluded The City of Toronto from my target market for the last few years so I haven't really kept up with the regulations or requirements.

[Will Pacala]

Can you get me a link to a site on or about permeable pavers?? I don't think I'm too sure what one is.

[diginahole]

http://www.unilock.com/Product.asp?Product=108

[diginahole]

Now that I look at that page it does'nt really explain what permiable pavements are. The surface has voids left in it to allow water to drain through the base rather than running off the surface. The base design is different for permiable pavements than regular interlocking pavements.

[Will Pacala]

Oh ok now I see what they are thanks. I'm not entirerly sure that I would really install them that much around here. Near a pool wouldn't be all that great because of walking on it. It doesn't look like it would be nice to walk on!! And on driveways the pavers might get ripped up when the plows come in the winter. the voids in it would just lift it right up.

[diginahole]

Not at all. Installations of permiable pavements are equal in quality to regular interlock. You may get a few pebbles on the surface at first due to the voids being filled with small clear stone.

[Will Pacala]

Ok, I think that I was mis-understanding a bit there now I've got it.

[dan deutekom]

I have never had the opportunity to work with pereable pavers. Can the voids be filled with turf or is that another product?

[Paul]

The voids are filled with loose gravel to allow water to to flow under them. Topsoil might be used but in heavy rains the water wouldn't be pick up fast enough to qualify as a retention area.

[Will Pacala]

Those turf pavers for parking lots and such are no longer in production by the place by me. Can't find them anymore. They are basically the same idea as the permeable pavers but about 1 ft by1ft squares and are bulky. Little pieces of turf or sprigs are put in the octagon shape thing centers that have been cut out.

[Stonehenge]

Turfstone?

We have a couple suppliers around here.

[diginahole]

Turfstone and eco-stone are really completely different animals. The voids in eco-stone ( I'm guessing here) are only about 10% of the surface area. It is a much more formal look. Turfstone is more intended to make it possible to drive over a green space once in a while. I think the original application was for fire lane access.

[PSUscaper]

I'm more or less intereseted in the products like the eco-stone. Not the turf-style.

Will.......if you are working in the sparta area, you should check out the local codes. This past year, Its been reported that the township has begun checking impervious coverage % for properties on a regular basis. One of my clients had a friend who's pool was denied because of this. It is very, very big down in morris......and look like its starting around here.

I'm very interested in these pavers as it looks like a service that really has not been explored much. I see and hear about permeability problems, but never see any answers. Maybe its time to start offering some solutions.

[Bill Schwab]

Penn:

Here is one thing you may need to consider if you are trying to tap this market.

First, when you start talking about permiable, and implying that this is a means of relieving drainage from rain and such, you open yourself up to tremendous liabilities that as a paver you normally don't have. There are so many variables depending on soil perculation, structure,, etc that the use of these products could open a can of worms unless you are careful.

One thing we do on all new construction is we won't install any drainage devices, lines or systems unless a licensed architect or engineer has drawn a plan for them. Our only liability by contract is held to implementing the design as specified. Our contract has a separte line we make all clients sign if they want us doing this type of work, and it says we are held harmless for any design flaws in drainage systems that we install.

In other words, so long as we installed that system as written, when the yard floods it is the designers rear end, not ours.

Improper drainage in our neck of the woods has been shown time and again to be the cause of foundation slab cracking (even though all concrete cracks) and toxic mold, leading to thousands, millions of dollars damages in restitution.

I would make sure you consult with a construction versed attorney who can guide you as to how to proceed with minimal liability. I don't mean to scare anyone here, but you all know how stupid people get when things are implyed...

[diginahole]

Bill you bring up a valid point and offer sound advice. I'm not so sure that permeable pavements are necessarily designed to used as a drainage system per se. Permeable pavements are still pitched to drain albeit at somewhat slower rate than a solid surface. The intent is to allow only some of the surface water to percolate into the earth below thus reliving some of the burden that would be added to existing storm water systems by going with a solid surface. I do however agree that I am not qualified to design the structural base for a permeable pavement and would most often defer that responsibility to the manufacturer. I'm certain there are many considerations that need to made to accommodate different subsoils.

I think that the issue of surface water runoff will become an issue in many urban jurisdictions in the not to distant future. Permeable pavements in my opinion would seem to be at least a step in the right direction. Environmentally responsible landscapes should be the aim of an industry we fondly call 'green'.

[PSUscaper]

You make some very valid points Bill, and I couldn't agree with you more.

The thing is, I'm not looking at this from a design/engineering standpoint solely.

I understand the importance of drainage, and do not want to be the contractor who says 'everything is going to be fine because you have permeable pavers installed' and then turn around and flood the people's basement.

that needs to be left in the hands of those qualified to do so.

What I do want to do is be able to walk up to Ms. Smith and sell her a paver driveway that she may not have been able to have before.

Permeable pavers are a answer to a much larger problem. Quite frankly, I can install a regular paver driveway and have no problems on THAT site..........its the neighbor 3 miles away, next to the stream that all the stormwater runs into that may have a problem.

this is the approach I'm taking, and that is the approach that the town's are taking

Maybe not 100% perfect, but permeable pavers look to have a bright future......for example.

If Ms. smith, according to towns regulations, is only allowed to have 1000 sq ft of coverage for her driveway, she may be very unhappy as she won't get that extra 300 ft she would like to have as a turnaround for that big SUV she just bought.

While getting bids for her new driver paveway, it is very, very unlikely anyone will give her the idea or a price for a permeable paver driveway.

After looking over other contractor's prices, she then comes across mine. In my bid, I propose a way to make it possible to achieve that turnaround area she has always dreamed of......though my price is higher than others.......she chooses mine because she gets something no one else has offered, or for that matter, can offer.

I have seen what these codes can do. I watched a homeowner rip out his drive and then move his side drive in garage doors to a 'front' drive in garage just so he could gain some extra surface area for the new patio around the pool he had just installed.

The market is there, I have no doubt about it. The more people, the more houses, ..........the less places for water to go.

I'm not looking to be a engineer on this one. I just want to know what town's say on this matter. Maybe, by installing permeable pavers, I can increase the clients drive by only 15% more than it was already.............not much.......but, that's 15% more than others could and to me that's a 150% better chance I have of getting the job.

I seem to think that there is a 'typical' installation for these pavers, and that a typical result is achieved. I guess that is the main problem so far. Towns need to see hard, physical results on these, and it doesn't seem like there are many.

I've done some searches, and have found some very interesting studies done. Some are right here in NJ. Many of them use Permeable pavers as PART of a larger plan, but most of the studies show success.

[Paul]

Steve we have a few places here that use the pavers most are commercial or schools that use them. One that come to mind here is a school that first used a gravel filled Geo-web to meet the requirements of a detention area. It was a parking lot that had 36" of 3/4" washed gravel under it then topped with a decorative stone used to fill the geo-web. It failed do to contractors snow plowing picked up too much of the stone and the loose stone would cause cars to get stuck. They switched to a Unilock paver and have not had a problem with it. It does have a drainage system under it but it's made as a detention area. The drainage system has a restricter built into it to slow the water feeding in to the storm system.

[Will Pacala]

Sorry I just read your post on the codes now Penn. Thanks for the warning!! About hoew much are the permeable-pavers compared to the regular pavers?? Do they last as long because of freezing and thne thawing back???

[Stonehenge]

Will - Check with Unilock - I'm sure they'll have the answers you seek....

[Paul]

Will, the paver are just as strong as a standard paver. infact they are made with the same equipment and out of the same material. the only differance is they have a hole that is built in to the installation pattern.

[Will Pacala]

Ok thanks guys. Then in that case it sure sounds like it could be something to offer. I think that you would get more calls for regular pavers instead but what the heck, use the permeable ones too. The installation process is pretty much the same, right?? When it comes to cuts on corners it's pretty much the same unless the hole in the paver doesn't fit in right. So yeah I would definatly consider it.

So Penn what are you thinking now with all of this back and forth about doing it. Yes offer it, or No because it wouldn't be used that much and the characteristics aren't different enough to worry about. what do you think??

[Rex Mann]

Pennscapes,

Some of the larger permable paver projects, like parking lots, are designed much difrrently than a regular flexible pavement system. They are desinged to collect the runoff water. Along with the runoff water are pollutants. The sub structure is designed to collect or trap these "bad" things. Depending on the variables involved the design life varies. At the end of the design life the pavement needs to be unzipped and all that "bad" stuff removed and disposed of according to the EPA. Then new stuff is brought in and the pavers re-laid. There are test projects currently underway. However, none are old enough to have gone trhrough the unzipping process.

With residential driveways there is no need for this concern. Their fuction is to allow more non-permeable material on a given site. Some even argue, that they recharge the ground water.

There is a resedential market for the permeable paves. Just like any market, if there is seeminly no need for it, you must create the need and the want.