paver patio under bay doorwall

[danbuza]

I will be installing a raised paver patio in my back yard. I have a bay window/doorwall approximately 17 inches from the ground at the back of my house. My question is how should I block out the space under my bay window/doorwall?

Assuming my paver patio is higher than 17 inches, it will butt up against the bay. I assume i need to somehow pack base material under the bay so that the base under the patio doesn't give into the void. If this is the correct solution, how do i compact this area? Hand tamp from the side?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Stonehenge]

Danbuza, first I'll welcome you to the site.

But I have to be straight with you - a raised patio is beyond the ability of most homeowners. Not all, but almost every homeowner-built elevated patio I've ever seen either looked awful the day it was completed, or had massive settling and other problems within 12 months. This link is an example of a failed raised paver patio (http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376) that was installed by the homeowner.

It's not that there are specific tasks that someone outside the field can't accomplish, just that there is a great deal of experience that goes into a successful project like this, and there is just not a reasonable expectation of success for someone without a good deal of hardscaping, or at least construction experience.

That being said, you should consider building a retaining wall structure that follows the lines of the house, but does not go under that bay - it will not be possible to sufficiently compact that area, and even if you could, packing layers of stone against siding and OSB will result in rotting wood sheathing and studs in your home.

Be sure to over-excavate in depth and width, and don't skimp on compaction equipment.

But I would rather endorse your searching our member list for a contractor in your area specializing in this kind of work (you didn't list where you're from, so I can't help you much there). I think the odds for a great project are substantially improved that way.

Good luck with your project.

[scl]

First off let me say I agree with Jeff about seeking out a prfessional for a raised patio. But that said, I did a patio last year with 2 bay windows hanging over. Compated under them with a 4 lb. hammer and a 2x4, laying on my belly. Laid the pavers the same way. What a pain in the backside.:censored: Timewise it takes forever.

[Bill Schwab]

There is another way to pluck that goose.... Instead of preparing the area against the foundation/under bays as you would for a segmental wall backing, you can dig to the frost line, and trench pour a footing with rebar ever 16" vertically from the top, then lay an 8-8-16 block backer. But your segmental units up to that and just match elevations then infill with gravel, compact and lay pavers. By digging instead of compacting, you can save a little work, and throw the spoils under the patio section to save gravel infill. This worked pretty well for us.

And I also have to agree with Jeff and SCL about having a pro do the patio for you. Lots of tricks you need to know/learn to make one of them come together the right way.

[danbuza]

Thanks to everyone for your responses.

I really don't consider myself a "typical homeowner". Although I'm not a carpenter by trade, I have taken on several projects around the house that would be considered "very dificult" for the typical homeowner. Since I have successfully completed 3 paver projects in the past (though on a much smaller scale) and since I have spent several months planning and preparing for this, I'm quite comfortable installing it myself.

Having said that, my only other "major concern" is the pitch of the finished patio. My supplier suggested that the retaining wall be level all the way around with the pavers pitched at the center to the outside away from the house. When asked how to do this, his recommendation was to level it first, then add extra paver base by hand to create the desired pitch. I orignally thought that the retaining wall (and pavers to match) would need to be pitched from the house down to the yard (which seems impossible). Does anyone have a better suggestion?

Anyway, it sounds like there are a few ways to approach my bay doorwall issue. As I eluded to earlier, my local hardscape supplier has been answering all my tough questions up to this point. When I stumbled upon your forum the other day, I thought that this would be another valuable resource to get expert advice. I will take these ideas to my hardscape supplier and discuss them further before making any decisions.

Thanks again for your help.

[Bill Schwab]

If you build the walls first, you can take a screed board, notch the ends for the right paver depth, and cut a 1% pitch out of the screed board so you would use the sand to add the pitch. So long as the gravel base is higher in the middle that would accomodate the thicker center.

[Stonehenge]

And if the patio is too large for that, cut a single notch (1/8" smaller than the depth of the pavers for compaction), and use a 1" steel EMT conduit pipe as a screed guid down the middle.

[scl]

Another trick along the lines of Jeff's is to set your screed conduit, then get some non organic (plastic) shims and align to pitch. Ideally, you should be at around 1" for every 8 feet.

[danbuza]

My hardscape supplier offered me another suggestion for the bay/doorwall. He suggested filling the space under the bay with my base (tamping from the side) then applying a thin layer of tar around the bay where the pavers will meet the wood stucko. The tar is supposed to provide protection from water. At this point, I may not go through the extra trouble and cost required to build up to the doorwall. I'm leaning toward building the patio a few inches below the bay doorwall which will save me some time, trouble and money.

If i do leave a few inches below the bay, i will have to lay a thin bead of concrete edging that follows around the bay to keep the pavers locked in - then fill the area under the bay with stones. I guess i'll have to hide the opening with some planters.

[Stonehenge]

Keep in mind that most local hardscape suppliers do not actually install the stuff. It tends to make their advice less credible, IMHO. Like getting surgery advice from a guy who plays a doctor on TV.

[AZTLANLC]

The money and time you'll save now will not be suficcient to repair the damage it will cause eventually to the house, do it right the first time.
Any advice you get from most person in this forum is backed by thousands and thousands of sqf sucesfully installed not by people that sells the product only and will not guaranteed the installation, ask your suplier if he would guarantee, it will not settle and damage the house if done his way.
:shy:

[danbuza]

My hardscape supplier is a very reputable company with several people who have experience in using everything they sell. I have gone to great lenghts to make sure that the folks i'm dealing with can adequately answer my questions. In fact, there are other suppliers in the area who sell a bit cheaper. I think I'm making the right decision to buy from those who have hands on experience behind the desk.

On the other hand, I have taken into account all the concerns in this thread and realize more than ever some of the challenges i will potentially face. My plans for this project are very ambitious for someone who has not performed a job (at this scale) in the past. The fact is, I'm willing to put in the hard work to save money. As long as i do my homework, take my time, and do it right - I'm confident this will be successful.

The plan is to build a raised paver patio with built in seating and 4 pillars using Oaks Ortana wall block and Romanesque pavers. I will post some pictures once complete (for anyone interested).

[danbuza]

I've just about completed the retaining wall portion of my raised patio. I'm at the point now where I need to make some saw cuts to the retaining wall blocks where I've got a 45 degree corner. The wall blocks are 6 inches thick. If i use a handheld circular saw (7 1/4 inch), what type of blade would anyone recommend for 2 weekends worth of work? ...and where can I find one?

[HardDaysKnight]

Bladewizard could help you out. Heres his liknk.

http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=19

[Stonehenge]

Actually, I wouldn't recommend using your circular saw, unless you plan on tossing it in the trash when you're done. The fine dust from the cutting (whether you use an abrasive or diamond blade) will get into the moving parts of your saw and ruin it. Not a big deal if it's a $40 saw, but if you'd like to hang on to it, go to your rental yard and rent a 16" cutoff saw from Partner or Stihl.

[PSUscaper]

I've been folloowing this one for a while, and have kept quiet. I let the trust in the supplier thing go, but the circular saw thing has raised my suspicion on this project now...................if the supplier even gave the slightest thought of using a circular saw for cutting wall block, I would shoot him. Second of all, be very carefull cutting 45 degree angles..............you create a very weak angle in the wall (I am envisioning a seem going straight up every corner right now, and a seem blowing apart 2 years from now with stone and pavers laying between it!) If you are looking for a finised face on the block, split them with a chisel and hammer. 45 degree angles are not easy with any wall block, and for that matter, a lot of 'experienced' contractors have trouble with them. If you cut the block, you create a 'cut' surface, which is not pleasing to the eye, and is a dead give away for a 'diy' project.

You can rent a cutoff for around $60 a day. Don't rent a blade.....just buy one (from Blade Wizard of course ) as on a project this size it will justify itself, and being you have no experience, you are likely to wear a rental blade out anyway and pay double for it.

[AZTLANLC]

How right is pennscapes about those 45 angles we hope is not going to be like we think, also when you mentioned sitting wall, are those going to be continuing the wall as a free standing, is any geogrid used in this project?

Most of the wall stones can be split using a chissel and a hammer and most of the stones also have special corners units or show the proper way to be split to be used as one.

I'm looking forward for some pictures of this project.

[danbuza]

The idea to use the circular saw was strictly mine. However, I wasn't sure - that's why I asked. I got the same reaction from my supplier when i shared the idea last night. He said the paver dust and particles would likely ruin the saw. I will be making some calls today to see what my saw rental options are. $60 a day seems reasonable, but the wet saws I was looking at are over $100 per day. Stonehenge, if I recall, you used to live in the Detroit area. I'm in Shelby Twp. Any recommendations for tool rental in this area?

I'm not using geogrid. The sitting wall (about 7 feet wide between the pillars) will be just over three feet high total and does not rest on my 45 degree corner. All blocks that make up the sitting wall will be glued.

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that some of you are hoping that this project fails. I've seen the posts on "Retaining Walls Gone Bad"... you all seem to be very amused by them.

[Bill Schwab]

Here is one out if the box....Buy a saw, you can get a new Wacker with a 14" diamond blade in the $750.00 area. I think Joe Wizzard, Garden State Diamond Blade has an ad box on top of this thread and he can set you up.

Who knows, you may like the noise of the saw, become addicted like I am, and have a new guy type toy just to fire up and hear whine, or, if you want, sell it after the job for a few hundred less. The ownership and sale just might end up being less than the rental, and you can roll the saw cost into supplies which add up upon sale of your house for tax credits.

Who knows, if you take care of the saw, you may even find someone in this forum to buy it as a back up.

[trees]

danbuza-

I don't think anyone here WANTS you to fail, we're all just a little skeptical (and rightfully so) when a homeowner takes on a job that the pros find challenging. Experience teaches us that they often go very wrong, that's why there have been so many words of caution that might seem like we're rooting against you.

We all wish you the best of luck and have been giving you the best advice you can find for free. We have all bid many projects that a homeowner gave a go, often on the cheap, and will bid many more in the future. I know I'm the first to give kudos to a DIY guy when he's done something right and have even helped capable clients with DIY projects (charging for consultation, of course). Do remember that this forum is by the pros, for the pros & we're always willing to help a little.

Post some pictures during the construction and after to make believers of us all, you certainly believe in yourself.

(note: is there any way to restrict homeowners from viewing certain forums, I'm not sure how helpful it is to have our potential customers looking at inside stuff like pricing and critiques of work???)

[Stonehenge]

Dan - Shelby Township used to be my stomping grounds. Grew up there, worked for Mueller's Sunrise Nursery, and later for Superior Scape (which I think is now off Schoennherr).

My memory is going to be pretty shakey for rental yards - but Weingartz at Hall and VanDyke might have saws, and there was a hole in the wall place that was on VanDyke around 21 or 22 mile. Reliable Concrete also used to rent out equipment, but I don't even know if they still exist (Dan and Gan have to be getting pretty old by now), and if they rent out cutoff saws (when we rented there, I don't think cutoff saws had even been invented yet!). Soulliere Decorative Stone might rent tools, too. If they don't, they could likely point you in the right direction.

[danbuza]

Stonehenge - It's a small world. I grew up in Sterling Heights... a lot has changed around here in the past 10-15 years. You're probably familiar with Rocks N Roots then. This is where I'm buying my material. As for the saw, I just checked into Romeo Rent All. They can rent out a 15" Block Saw w/ diamond blade for 2 days for $150.

On another note, let me apologize if I offended anyone. I was not trying to direct my comment to everyone. I absolutely see my participation in this forum as a privilege rather than a right. I am an IT professional that participates in many forums offering free advice when i can... and I feel the same way you do when someone attempts to (for instance) design a website on their own. Experience teaches me that it often looks less than professional in the end. On the other hand, I know that most small companies (including yourselves) appreciate the opportunity and the challenge of doing things yourself and saving some money in the process.

I can honestly say that the advice i've gained from this forum has already saved me from potential issues. For example, the suggestion to use a 2x4 and 4lb hammer to compact the base under the bay is something that I never thought of.

Anyway, I will try to post some pictures. If all goes well this weekend, you'll see the finished product.

[danbuza]

Well - after two weekends of work, the wall is up and most of the limestone has been wheeled into the patio. Measuring and cutting those 45 degree corners cost us at least 6-8 hours. If i had to do it all over again, I probably would have made 90 degree corners to save a lot of time... but with the 45's, i like how it matches up with our octagon nook. Here are some pics as promised...

[danbuza]

Another...

[danbuza]

Closeup of the 45 degree corner...

[Paul]

I see you used what looks like Pisa II, As pennscapes warned you about 45 cuts weaking the wall, I see you've done that ! Your supplier should have ordered corner units so you could split them for a proper corner. The weak link in your wall is the area that you are most proud of!

[PSUscaper]

I did think about it for a minute and realized the wall was only going to be a foot tall, so I won't go crazy on the 45's. With only two block, as long as you glued them, you should be ok here....but on higher, load bearing walls, it would be a potential problem.

Just a few notes.

On the wall base prep, I don't see a mechanized compactor.......I see one for the filling part, but not on the base prep......That makes me a little nervous putting that kind of trust in a hand tamp to support a set of pillars that size. I've seen too many pillars lean after the first year, and base prep is one of the biggest reasons.

When doing prep, it is best to remove all the sod and then a few more inches after that for the entire patio area.....not just the wall bases. What you did is leave a lot of organic material in the middle, which will decay and can lead to pre-mature settling. it may not be so bad for the pavers, but when you build a set of steps in front of the doors, there is going to be a lot of mass there. Be sure to really back that stone under the overhang, as the stairs could settle as the stone under the overhang settles and slides back towards the house.

Finally, I'm just a little nervous that when this thing is all said and done......whether it looks great or not, its going to be a bit on the small side. I'm not sure what your objective was, but a run of the mill table and chairs is going to fill up that patio quickly. You don't even have the stairs in yet (which are going to stick out into in at least 3 feet, maybe four if you don't have a step into the house) and are looking tight on room. The 45 degree corners look great but cut the usable space down even more. It will be pretty to look at, but throw a table, some chairs, and grill up there, and you are going to be tripping over yourself. I know this is personal opinion, and others may say its plenty big, but I've always figured that if you are going to spend all that time and money, you might as well spend a little more and make have something that you won't out grow in the first year. There is nothing worse than building something and then saying a year later, 'boy do I wish I made this a little bigger'.

All in all, I will give a few words of encouragement. It looks good. You are definitely putting some thought into it, and look to be putting some long hours into it. For a first time project, I would say you did well........just don't tell us your thinking about starting a contracting company up soon!

[danbuza]

I will stick to IT. After putting this together, i give you guys credit. 3-4 weekends of work is ok because it gives me 5 days to recover in between. As much as I enjoy being outdoors, I would never do this type of work full time. My back would never hold up and my fingers are cut and chapped from all the lifting/placing/measuring and cutting of these 40-50 pound wall blocks. I'll stick to my M-F A/C office job.

To answer some questions...

I did remove all sod just prior to bringing in the limestone. Since there was so much time between phases, I didn't want that area to be muddy while working on the wall. I have a yellow lab that likes to track in the mud.

I used Oaks Ortana wall which appears to be Oaks competing product to Unilock's Pisa II. I did glue all my 45 degree blocks together. On the other hand I did (at some point) think about using corner blocks here... and since I had extra corners, I probably should have. Now that I think about it, that would have been much easier. Hopefully there won't be any issues there.

I did compact the base for my wall with a hand tamper. To make sure it was solid, I made sure to compact at 1/2 inch layers wetting it thoroughly. My hands were sore for days.

As for the size - it's about 17x17 - you're right, it would be too small to comfortably fit a decent size table set. However, my plan is to use this space as a "traffic area" and build onto it next season. Like many patio designs i've seen, the walkout is typically sized for a small table, but then the patio opens up for a larger entertainment area. To give you an idea, here is what i was thinking... (obviously not to scale)

[danbuza]

Pics as promised...

[danbuza]

another...

[danbuza]

another

[Stonehenge]

Looks like it's ready for a test drive. ;)