Cost by square foot???

[missnonnie]

Hi guys! I've been reading your forum for about a month now, trying to learn about installing patio pavers. I'm not planning on doing it myself (I hung up my tool belt after I whacked myself in the mouth with the claw end of a hammer!), but as a single woman, I don't have any man I can ask for advice. I hope you can help me!

I obtained two estimates for having a @300 square foot patio and steps down from sliders installed, using Unilock New England Cobblestones. The area is already quite level, and there is relatively easy access to it. One person gave me an estimate of $6,800, but that was for a cheaper paver. The second man gave me an estimate of $5,800 using Unilock. However, he wrote the square footage up as 20' X 20'. So I sent him an e-mail, telling him that the measurements were actually 21' X 14' (both by my measurements and that of the first estimator), and asked for a revised estimate. I also told him that I wanted to decrease the size of the steps landing from 36" to 30". He e-mailed me back, saying he would reduce the estimate by $400 for the smaller landing, but that the patio installtion price would not change. Now I realize that the prep work is labor intensive with all the excavating, etc. But shouldn't there be at least some reduction for 1/4 less pavers? The way I figure it, if it's going to cost the same, I might as well enlarge the area I want paved to 20' X 20', since that's what I'd be paying for! Am I getting ripped off? Thanks for any help you can give me. I always try to learn as much about a project as I can so I don't look like an idiot when dealing with a contractor and can ask the appropriate questions, but I'm kind of lost on this one.

[Stonehenge]

I'm moving this over to the homeowner help forum.

Hello missnonnie, welcome to our site. Re: the two different contractors - was there a predetermined design they were both pricing, or were they able to each design something unique? I ask because often I will listen to what they want, and if they've drawn something, it often doesn't achieve the thing they wanted in the first place, so I'll create my own design to better fit their needs.

That being said, if you were asking for bids on a predetermined patio design, and the second guy couldn't get the measurements right, what makes you think he'll get anything else right on it? You should probably eliminate that guy from your consideration. He's probably not trying to "rip you off", he just may not be a good listener, or may not have a ton of knowledge about this line of work.

As for the prices in general, it's hard to say - I don't know the prices of materials in your locality (wherever that is), and I don't know what the design is, and what the access to the site is. "Easy access" is usually relative to the person assessing it - easily accessed with a wheelbarrow is actually difficult access, and we charge more for that. Skid steer access, with the work in the front yard is truly easy access. Or a new construction home where we don't have to worry about damaging a lawn, and can run spoils and materials from whatever direction without worrying about having to repair or clean up later. That is truly easy access. I mention all this just so you have a frame of reference.

One more note - it sounds like you're leaning toward the contractor that had the lower price. Take time to consider what you may be getting for that lower price, and if you are truly getting a "bargain". If you're willing to spend $5,800 on a paver patio, $6,800 is only 17% more. Considering this project should last you 20 years, that's a pretty small extra investment for what might be a better value.

But truthfully, I'd broaden my search, and bring in another contractor, maybe two, to bid your project. Look through references. Call the references. Look through portfolios. Know that their absolute best stuff is in their portfolio.

Re: the pavers - was that Unilock Olde Greenwich Cobble? I just looked through the current literature for Unilock and don't see anything named Unilock's New England Cobble. Could be a regional thing, however.

[missnonnie]

Thanks for the reply, Stonehenge. You're right about easy access being relative........my driveway goes all the way back to my backyard, and there is a 3 ft wide path, about 8 feet long to the area where I'd like the patio. So I guess it would require wheelbarrow work to remove the excavated dirt. I'm fairly sure a bobcat can get it there to do the actual digging though. The New England Cobblestones were in the catalog the contractor gave me, which he said was the most recent. I'm in New England (Rhode Island to be specific), so as you say it might be a regional thing. The NE Cobblestone is square with a smaller square attached to the bottom, so it makes a pretty geometic design, especially if you set it at an angle so it looks like a diamond. I had chosen that one or the Cobblestone which looks like a hexagon. I'm not really leaning toward one or the other contractors right now......I'm willing to invest whatever it will cost to have a patio installed properly. I was only asking about the lower priced bid because I was confused about why it wouldn't cost less to install the smaller patio. It's so difficult to know what something like this costs as there seem to be different rates in different areas of the country, and even within the same areas, there aren't any set rates. Most of the professionals who have posted on this site seem to be very honest, and charge according to labor, materials, and a reasonable profit. But several have mentioned throwing out a figure that's way over the top, and figure that if a customer is dumb enough to pay that much, so be it. I don't make a lot of money working in special education, so I can't afford to spend six or seven thousand dollars only to have the patio disintegrate a few years down the road. I'm just hoping to find someone who will do a good job for me and make a reasonable profit for himself. I will definitely take your advice and obtain a few more estimates. Thanks again.

[scott C]

Steps often take a good amount of time and money to install corretly how many of them are there and of what material. Estimates sound reasonable for the situation described.

[Stonehenge]

I don't know if most contractors price something really high, hoping for a 'dumb consumer'. Case in point, I recently mailed out a bid for a project I really didn't want. It involved us doing about 10 really small things, in a very tight area. 10 sqft of pavers. 2,000 sqft of seeding (broken into several small areas). 6 shrubs. Bed edging in various places. Several ton of stone here and there. Based on my experience, these are the projects we always lose money on. My preference is to not bid them at all, but most people seem to rather that we at least give them a price (probably because nobody else wanted it, either). So I took my calculated price and doubled it. My hope is that they see the price, their jaws drop, and they don't call us back. But if they do decide to contract with us, at least I can feel good knowing that given almost anything, I'll be able to make some money on the project.

The rates you're finding are a lot like home building. Each home is built from the same raw materials, but some a very expensive, some are not. Some are very well built, some are not. Determining who will do the job well is the most important part of your decision.

As for why one contractor reduced his price less than what you expected when you asked for a new estimate, this could be for several reasons:

1) He may feel that there is only a $400 reduction in his costs. It doesn't seem like it to me, but I'm not him, so I can't say.

2) He may be getting the sense that you might be more difficult to work with than he'd like. I don't know you, and I don't know him. I just know that I've had people want me to list the exact number of brick I'll be using, and the exact tonnage of stone, etc. Because I don't know myself until we get to doing the job (I can estimate pretty close, but to the brick?), they start to sound like a less attractive client to us, and I start finding ways to increase the price to offset what I anticipate will be a difficult relationship. Again, I don't know you or him, so I can't say what's going on there. Just offering a hypothesis.

As for interviewing the contractors, ask them questions. Ask them how they prepare the base. Ask them why they do it that way. Ask them what edge restraint they use and why. Ask them what compaction equipment they use. For me, most clients get bored to sleep if I start rattling off that information. But for the ones that ask (and I had one last night), it gives me the chance to describe why we do all the things we do (and there IS a reason for every little thing we do - just that telling you all those things might take an hour or more), and why I think those are the best things to do. It's my opportunity to show you how good we really are and the thought that went into each step in our process.

[missnonnie]

Thanks again for the insights, Stonehenge. It never occurred to me that a contractor might deliberately overbid because he didn't actually want the job. My patio is relatively small compared to a lot of other landscape work in the area, and the companies I obtained bids from are both pretty big. Several other companies that I called said they wouldn't even come out to do an estimate for anything under 500 square feet. I hope it's that the job is too small to be bothered with rather than that he views me as a difficult client. I certainly didn't want a brick count or anything like that........just asked him if the cost would be less since his measurements were off by 25%. As for asking questions, so far I've only asked these two contractors if they were licensed, had insurance, and if I could see their portfolio. Both of them volunteered specific info.....you know, 4 inches of gravel, 2 inches of sand, clean up of debris, etc. Other professionals I've dealt with (floor refinishers, kitchen remodelers, etc.) have always accepted follow up work from me, so I guess I can't be too much of a witch! I let them in before heading out to work, tell them to help themselves to anything in the fridge, and to simply lock up after themselves if they leave before I get home. I pay on time, and on several occasions have given $50-100 more if I felt someone did a really nice job. I've been really fortunate so far......except for a roofer, all of the professionals I've dealt with since I started remodeling two years ago have been wonderful......honest, reliable, and skilled. I'm sure I'll find someone like that to install my patio, too, now that I have a little more info to help me in my search!

[HardDaysKnight]

You really should get a few more quotes before you make a decision. Keep this in mind: Sometimes the lower quote isn't
the best alternative and sometimes it's because that qualified
and responsible contractor is not getting the calls or volume of
work and is just low-bidding to pay the bills. In our business
there are highs and lows. 500 sq. ft. can be small to a company
one day and a blessing 2 months later. I have been there
like many of us here will admit. After many years of being in
this business referalls along with advertisement fill those
voids. You should definately get a few more quotes.
Good Luck, Johnny

[scl]

Welcome misnonnie! We like customers like you, open fridge and all:p , if you were closer I'd be glad to give you an estimate! Illinois is a long commute though:huh:
Anyways, have you tried contacting your regional Unilock distributor to acquire the names of Authorized Unilock contractors? I think you can do this through their website. I personally am not one, for reasons of my own, but this could be one way to find other qualified contractors.
As far as size being too small, I'd knock out 300 footers every day if the market was there. Margins are always fair and you're in and out. Jeff hit it square when he described some of the vaariables, such as location and material access. Shop some more and see what your market has to offer. Be very careful about taking the cheapest quote, cause the old saying is never truer than with paver installs, "Good is seldom cheap, and cheap is seldom good".
Oh, and one other thing. If they are going to use 2" of sand, find another contractor. Industry standard is 1" or less.
Scott

[Bill Schwab]

We never bid on any work that more than 4 other companies are bidding on, and that is a question we ask in our prequalification interview with a prospective client. If they reply more than 4, we pass on the job.

Said that, size matters. True we have to buy less pavers with a smaller patio, but, it still has the same costs associated no matter what the size. There comes a point where we have to charge a given amount to calc in the profit we will gain. That is the biggest reason square foot prices never work consistantly.

[Rex Mann]

Hi All,

I would follow the guys advice:

"get at least one more quote"

"call Unilock for a factory authorized installer in your area"

"ask for references and check them"

As for the "small" reduction in price, I am sure he has his reasons. They may include:

Its still a 2-day job whether its 294 or 400 square feet

The smaller the job the more they may charge per square foot.

Delivery charges will be the same for all materials with either size project

These MAYBE variables going into his reasoning.

Best of luck with your project.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

[missnonnie]

Thanks, all! You guys have been great in offering advice and sharing your expertise......if you lived in my area, I'd bake you all a batch of brownies! I contacted Unilock through their website, and they are supposed to have 2 local contractors contact me. I also stopped by a company that sells materials (but doesn't install). They sell Belguard (I think that's how it's spelled) and the owner of the business was a very fatherly type who gave me a list of masons and landscapers they feel comfortable recommending. He told me that if they receive any negative feedback on any of the guys on the list, they go out to that job to look at it, and if they feel it wasn't installed properly, they remove that person/company from the list. He circled three names on the list that he felt were the best, so I am going to contact at least one of them for an estimate.

Scott, could I ask why you don't like Unilock? One of the guys who already gave me an estimate said that he doesn't like their pavers, but he skirted the issue when I asked him why. The owner of the materials company said he prefers Belguard because Unilock colors tend to fade. And by the way, if shrubbery is your life Scott, you need to get out more!!!

Conservative, hetero, speech-language therapist....."Ve have vays to make you talk!"

[Stonehenge]

I can't speak for SCL, but I would guess it's the restrictions Unilock puts on you in being a certified contractor, and not the product itself.

[Bill Schwab]

From the installers end, when Unilock was available to us, that is the only paver we would recommend. Support, lead generation, and as an installer, I personally liked the fact that they would not sell to the public. From our end, it stopped alot of the problems we deal with now, in that people would ask why the product was only X amount per s.f. and why do we charge so much, etc etc.

I have come to accept that if someone wants what we install and have to ask questions like that, they won't buy from us and typically find a low baller.

Now, there is nothing wrong with being an informed consumer, but as a contractor, when too many questions are asked of me pertainate to price, I am getting steered down a road I choose not to be on.

[missnonnie]

Bill, I really think you need to be an informed consumer nowadays. It’s the same whether you’re buying a new car, a tv, or a computer. Maybe you read up about it in Consumer Guide before making a decision, investigate on the web, or simply ask the store salesperson. But you need to be comparing apples to apples. That’s why I wanted to know why one contractor didn’t like Unilock and wanted me to use another paver. Was it because they don’t hold up well? Are they overhyped and overpriced? I don’t have any idea how much pavers cost, or even what constitutes a quality paver. I know from research on the web that there are several major suppliers of pavers including Unilock, Pavestone, and Belguard, and that their pavers are supposed to be better than the ones a consumer can purchase at do-it-yourself warehouses. But that’s pretty much the extent of my knowledge of hardscaping! That particular contractor never did give me an answer. I’d like to think my asking the second contractor why there was no price difference between installation of a 300 square foot patio versus a 400 square foot patio was not unreasonable. Personally, I think anyone (who isn’t in the business) who wouldn’t ask that question is an idiot. To be specific, I e-mailed him: "It looks like it's going to cost me the same for a 300 foot patio as for a 400 foot one. Or did I misunderstand your revised estimate?" Stonehenge’s explanation of the variables that might make a smaller patio cost the same as a larger one made perfect sense to me, but it’s not something the average person would know. You said you don’t want to deal with clients who ask too many questions about price, but what is too many? I asked the second contractor only one question ---why both patios cost the same despite the difference in size---and haven’t heard back from him. If he had simply told me what Stonehenge did, I would have said, okay, makes sense, go ahead with the job. Did I breech some unwritten rule of landscaping etiquette by questioning the price????

[HardDaysKnight]

Sometimes the consumer asks so many questions that
we start to ask ouselves:
Are they just picking my brain because they are going
to do-it themselves and need morer info?

Is this job worth even bidding on because the ?s are
giving me a sense this consumer might be a problem?

You see, we deal with the public all the time and you have
no idea the nonsense we have to put up with to satisfy some.
It's never the homeowner but the contractor that bends over backwards. Most customers are reasonable but, in the course
of a year we each may get a nightmare or 2 that we cant
wait to finish and move on. I qualify every potential customer
because you need me and I need you, but, we don't want to
revisit something like that horrible blind date we all once had.

[Bill Schwab]

Basically, there are certain questions and body language that I see that will dictate who is a low ball shopper and who is serious about quality and value for dollar. The words low priced, and quality typically can't be said in the same sentence as they are oxymorons when used in that manor.

It is usually when someone tells me they are taking more than 4 bids that I find my time wasted, because we never are the low guy on the bid list.

Most paver comapnies offer life guarantees, but what was significant about Unliock is that they were very local, and anything we ever needed was given and available. In contrast, we had to wait to get other pavers and they did not offewr the support Unilock did..

[scl]

Misnonnie,

I'm self employed, I can't get out anymore LOL!

It's not that I don't like Unilock, its as Jeff said ,the restrictions. I personally like several other products from other companies and don't like to be hemmed in. That said, I spec Unilock when the local supplier for them sends a customer my way, I make sure to use them. Unilock products are very high quality and the "fading" issue is consistent throughout the paving kingdom. Its not like they turn gray in 3 years, and all the quality mfrs. will hold their color equally well and look great for many, many years to come. They are structurally superior to the discount stores junk, and several of the quality mfrs. market a lesser quality line to sell to Home Depot, Menards, Lowes, etc...