Woe is me!!

[Pelican]

Well my diligence and hard work seems to finally be paying off, my lawn crew is working beyond capacity and new customers are calling nearly daily. Some might think being so busy is a good thing, but it presents me with a problem.

I hate turning away work, especially when it's next door to an existing client, but I don't want to work my crew into the ground either. I've built the business on quality of work and don't want to sacrifice this for speed.

I figure I'm faced with two choices, either hire a third man for the crew or put together another crew which would mean purchasing about $60,000 in equipment. The trouble is the second crew would only be busy a few days a week at this point, plus the huge investment. I currently have a Z turn rider (60") and hydro walk behind (52") working, plus 2 trimmers, one backpack blower and 2 walk behind blowers. Could a third man, doing trimming and blowing while the two mowers are running speed up my production much?

Is there another suggestion I'm not thinking of?

[GLAN]

easiest is to hire the third man........yes it will speed up things......how could it not?

[Nebraska]

I would say a hire a third man and max out the crew of three....at that point re-visit the idea of starting a second crew.

Personally we use a third man three days per week on a mowing crew.....it does speed things up.

[Bill Schwab]

I'm an equipment freek...But then consider a 33% labor burden and 30% work comp rapeage from the good ole libs in California congress. off topic but right on with keeping labor down, we have two Ingersol Bobcat power dump trucks/wheelbarrows ordered and in route. I figure they will slice hand wheeling labor by 40%.

Back to topic, if you can keep the orange, yellow, red, or green iron moving (depending on your mower choice) I would go for the second crew so long as you know your first does not need you. Get the next one dialed in and then step back and assume a strictly managerial slot.

What we found is that there comes a point where more bodies will not add the extra time you need to take no more accounts. Heres one for you....Keep the crew as is, then hire a TLC guy who will run a pick up. His job is shrub trimming, walk edging, basic making the job neat. He blows walks, he gives things the once over. Yes it will add an extra visit to sites, but will lossen up the time consuming things from the crew so they can assume more. Then, calc out where he is maxed out, and for those jobs he cannot get to, instruct the regular crew to do TLC. This way all you need is a mid size pick up (Dodge Dakota, Chevy Colorado, maybe an F-150) a trimmer, edger and blower. Truck lease cost, $250 a month, Edger, $400 (+ -) Blower $400 (+ -) and Trimmer $300 (+ -).

As it builds, shift duties again.

[HardDaysKnight]

Bill, that is fantastic advice. I don't do maintainance but,
I can see how that would seriously make his service glide
through the week. Great input.

[Nebraska]

I respectfully will disagree with sending a second truck out on the same properties....

How could possibly dedicating two visits for the same price allow you to come out ahead? The third man on the crew can assume this type of role...or rather that's the crew leaders responsibility before they check it off and move on....and do it all in one visit.

I know the the big question for anyone in maintenance is always two man or three man crew.... I personally like the three man crew set up and put it into practice as we've grown. We keep two men on mowers and the third as a mostly a dedicated trimmer. The crew leader is resposible for the outcome in regard to quality and time.

I've thought a lot about it and I believe the most cost effective way to grow would be to max out a three man crew before purchasing ALL the necessary equipment to start another.

[Pelican]

A bit of additional information:

I'm no longer involved in the lawn care end of things other than addressing complaints. I've got two great workers doing it for me, but they're working 12 hour days and I don't want to burn them out.

I've done something a little similar to Bill's suggestion in the past, during extended wet periods I'll send the guys around to do just the trimming so that when conditions are dry, all they need to do is mow. It's not as profitable, but it keeps things as close to schedule as possible.

I realize a third man would speed things up, but my concern is whether it would increase production enough to cover his wage. Have those of you who have the 3 man crew done the math on this? In my area, lawn care profits are very slim, I use the service as a marketing tool for additional work and advertising, but I'd hate to have it cost money.

[Bill Schwab]

The 3 man crew proved counter productive when we were running maintenance, that's why one took over TLC. Where you loose is while running job to job you only have one guy working and the rest getting windsheild time.

The same held true to 2 man garbage truck routes. WE added more trucks and made one man crews, and could haul more trash in a given day with the extra volume and work getting done. Instead of one guy now drawing non productive pay, you would now have two.

In order to make it work, you need to know how much time is lost when say your mowers are done, and waiting for your clean up trim guy. Or, vice versa.

On a tight route, (stops less than a minute apart) this method is not significant, but when you have stops over 5 minutes apart, it works.

[Nebraska]

For us the increased production with a third man on the mowing crew is financially justified....especially when considering the reduced hours of overtime.

No one sits either....if the two are done mowing and there is trimming to be done..they trim....etc.

The average increase for my three man crew, three days a week is approximately 24% for each of those three days. That does not include the money saved on overtime.

[GLAN]

I understand Bills method........though realisticaly it has added a significant amount of over head......

Truck for one........Still have the 3rd person.........but now the extra truck........insurance, gas, maintenance. And still the 3rd guy.

I run 5 man maintenance crew. I will throw on an extra from time to time when my work is complete, delay due to rain, or if there is the odd day I have nothing going on for myself.

2 guys on mowers
1 guy on line trimmer
1 guy on edger
1 guy doing beds.

first one done will either pick up a blower or help with the beds. This depends on the timing of every thing. Where we run a whole street. They move down the street at a pretty darn good pace.

[Nebraska]

Bill has been there and done it many times over....... I think that it will vary depending upon the dynamics of your crews, the route, cash, and direction you want to take your business.

The main reason for not buying more equipment on my part is cash and direction of growth. I felt more confident in trying the three man crew first rather than setting up a one man crew and incurring the cash outlay.

I wonder how much more productive a one man crew is over two man crew?

[cutntrim]

If your doing resi's, I'd stick to a two-man crew. If it's all commercial, then 3 is fine. If it's half-and-half, then perhaps a third man on in a part-time capacity, for the days when you've got a lot of commercial work.

If you're doing installation work as well, then the install crew can do maintenance one-or-two days a week, to pick up the slack from the maintenance truck. That's what I do. I'm moving towards 50/50 maintenance vs. installation, but right now my installation crew (myself + 1-2 workers), cuts lawns on one day each week.

Incidentally, I'm also at full maintenance (and installation) capacity right now. I just changed my voicemail greeting to reflect that. I'm not currently taking on any new maintenance accounts, and I'm booked-up until July for installation work. For me, I'm concentrating on streamlining what I'm currently able to handle, rather than looking to lay out more cash in order to take on more work. Sounds as if you're in a similar situation.

[GLAN]

I can't remember back far enough to the beginnings of where I started when running anything less than a 5 man crew. Though there was the few short years where I ran 2 routes each having a 3 man crew.

For maintenance.......2 men is better than 1. 3 is better than 2. 4 is better than 3. 5 is pretty much maxed out before people start tripping on each other.

[jwholden]

I changed my message last week as well. It says that we are not scheduling new projects until early-July. Hoping that helps rather than hurts, there are too many people who need to have it tommorow.

Back when I did residential lawns a two man crew was ideal. When I took three men with me there was always someone stretching a job or loafing back at the truck while the others finished. Unfortunately for me, I only cut a couple days a week and had to bring both of my employees with me. It has always been difficult to explain the concept of make it look good but don't take all day doing so.

A 'boss' could probably keep up with a two man crew alone, but I wouldn't want to work that pace everyday. That is where the employees come in to spread the workload.

[Mark Oomkes]

Steve, many questions here, some already asked. How big are your jobs? How many days are your crew working 12 hours a day. If they are working 5-12 hour days X 2 people, they are working 120 hours or 40 hours OT total.

If this is the case, are you charging more for those 40 OT hours? If not you are losing money for every one of those hours worked because of the increased cost for OT. If there are 40 hours, you already have a full week of work lined up for another crew. Could you possibly purchase a minimal amount of equipment for this 1 man crew and he can go out by himself?

I am going to go opposite of almost everyone here. DO NOT put a third man on, epecially if they are small sites. We have run 2 and 3 man crews. The most profitable crews are 1 or 2 man crews. We used to just load up mowing crews with whatever work was there and close by and didn't pay attention to how many HOURS they were scheduled for. And we never really made money in the summer, while doing it this way. Once we started paying attention and actually scheduling our mowing crews for approximately 40 hours worth of work, we started making money during the summer while mowing. Now we are not subsidizing our mowing with our plowing money anymore. In fact, last year we covered almost 80% of our total overhead with our summer work instead of vice versa. I know that the reduction in OT by actually scheduling our crews also contributed to this turn around.

Most of the trade magazines have at one time or another printed articles on how big a maintenance\mowing crew should be. Most of them concluded with smaller is better. Our 1 man crews blow away even our 2 man crew dollars\hour. Production wise, maybe not, but dollar wise they do and I am actually trying to make a couple bucks while working my butt off.

I should point out that our mowing crews mow, trim, edge and blow off. They do not weed, trim\prune shrubs or anything else.
I have a lot of money tied up in equipment that I do not want sitting while someone else is pulling 3 weeds or 2 guys are trimming with $300 trimmers and my $12,000 mower not making me money. I know this is still going to happen, but I do my best to limit it as much as I am able. Bill is absolutely right on this idea, it does work and it works well.

[AZTLANLC]

I agree 100% with mark.
Last year I run a 3 man crew and time saved was only 20% on the best day.
So this year went back to 2 man crew and hourly profit is much better.
I had to get rid of some accounts but I'm getting to the point where I need another crew so for now I'm doing mowin once a week to help my guys but I will add a one man crew pretty soon since I already have the equipment for it.

Maybe another suggestion would be to hire another guy and get another walk behind mower with a sulky and send him to do the small properties even if he goes a little slower than your other guys production time will be the same or better.

[Pelican]

Thanks for all the responses, some great ideas! Most of my accounts are 1 to 2 acres of grass, I try to keep a rate of $75 to $80/hour for a 2 man/machine crew. With the number of gypsies around here, that's the best I can do and still remain competitive. I market myself on quality and reliability to get little more, but I can't squeeze too hard.

I think the immediate solution will be a third man with the idea of putting a second truck together for the single man crew. This will take a while, it will mean a substantial investment. Thanks everyone!

[GLAN]

Great thread

The info provided is quite interesting...and for me it was rather difficult to understand.......That was until I realized "Location"

Along with "Location" I have to remember not every where in America do Landscapers operate as myself and those around me. 2 man crews........that would not cut it to well where I am. And yet it seems the normal thing through this thread. 1 man crews......Oh hey, that is just not going to fly where I am.

The idea of less men on the payroll intriques me a great deal. It just won't work where I am. I am not sure if I am blessed or cursed with the location that I live and work.

Here I am pushing that more men will be quicker and get more work done......enough work that it pays for the extra man, plus profit. But then I average about 40 lawns a day, 4 days a week and 1 day of commercial management. Each and every property is done so as if it is Buckingham Palace

[cutntrim]

You do half as many in a day as we do in a week. Majority of my residentials are around 5k ft in size. Three guys trip over each other on such little lots. Three works fine for larger (>1a) lots and commercial (bed work) properties.

Residentially, we do "lawn maintenance", commercially it's all-encompassing "property maintenance". I've never been to Buckingham Palace, but I do like to keep the lawns looking like Yankee Stadium.

[Mark Oomkes]

GLAN, whether you say can or you can't you are correct. Henry Ford.

It may not work for you, your work is definitely different than ours. We do 98% commercial, but we leave them looking like Yankee Stadium as well. Being totally ignorant of your situation, I would think it would be possible to have a dedicated bed maintenance crew going around weekly so your mowing crews could keep moving and keep that equipment producing. If I were you I sure would at least try it.

Steve, I hate to look short term because in the long run it usually costs more, but like AZTLANLC suggested, but what about a 60" walk behind with rocket wheels. In our situation, one can be used on most of our properties and are just as fast on the smaller properties that have quite a few obstacles. It's just the wide open properties that a Z is faster. But to reduce the startup costs if you have to buy a truck, trailer, mower, etc, this could be an option.

We are able to get $75-$80 per hour per man with a 1 man crew. A 2 man crew very seldom will come close to that on a regular basis.

[GLAN]

Mark

Not a bad idea......and if we were only commercial I can certainly see that working like that. The other nice thing regarding that is the property manager sees that your company is reprisented on sight more than just one day.

When you are combining the crews route with both commercial and residential.....the idea of having a follow up crew doing beds or other odds and ends would not go over to well with residents. I would not want workers on my property more than the 1 time they need to be there. Your scenario would mean that a cutting crew can do my home on Wednesday but it maybe Thursday that the bed crew gets there? or Friday?

It's a nice concept and yet more costly due to the need of another vehicle.

We are one stop that's it. Lawn cut, edged, line trimmed and beds, blown down to street made into piles and we sweep it up. Lawn applications are done at the same time when they are needed.

[Pelican]

Well I sent a third man out today for the first time and they shaved about 4 hours off the run. They got rained out 2/3 through the day so a few accounts remain. I'm pleased with the results, they should get better as the new man learns the accounts.

The calls for new accounts are still coming in, I'm afraid a second crew will become a necessity before long. I'm concerned about the investment and added equipment to maintain. As it is now, it seems I'm repairing something almost every morning.

Just to give an example of what I'm facing here, I visited a prospective account this evening in a neighborhood I have several other accounts in. I made the client an offer that is slightly below my regular rate because there would be no travel involved and she gasped! On a job I anticipate taking 35 to 40 minutes, she is paying $30 to have cut. It's not cut to my standards, but it's not atrocious either. Earlier in the season, I had a snow customer request an annual lawn contract, another contractor beat my bid by 1/3! I figure it's only a matter of time before these guys are out of business, either by default or deception.

[GroundKprs]

How about doing it by the numbers? One man cuts 10 one hour lawns a day, and travel time between each averages 8 minutes.

10 x 60 = 600 min, and
11 x 8 = 88 min, for a total of 688 min, or 11 hrs 28 min.

Now how many man hours for a two man crew? First of all, from tracking times for many years, you have to add 2 minutes to each job for each additional person (unloading & loading extra machine). And travel time is doubled because two guys are traveling.

10 x 62 = 620
11 x 8 x 2 = 176, for a total of 796 min, or 13 hrs 16 min.

And for a 3 man crew:

10 x 64 = 640
11 x 8 x 3 = 264, for a total of 904 min, or 15 hr 4 min.

So to have three in place of one, you're adding over 3½ hours of payroll to get the same work done. And that's providing they all keep moving - which others tell me does not happen with more than 2 man crews.

Each business needs to balance their own individual numbers to decide on crew numbers and when to add another unit.

[GLAN]

GK

There is a flaw in your computation.

It no longer takes a 2 person crew 1 hour to cut the same lawn it takes 1 person 1 hour.

As it will not take a 3 person crew the same amount of time to cut the same lawn the 2 person crew is cutting.

Each additional person on the crew decreases the work time per account.

This carries through till there is a point where there are to many men and you will have people standing around.

One other factor that will influence man power needs is the make up of the route.......Does the route have large clusters? or many 1 or 2 stops with needed drive time between.

[dan deutekom]

Glan

I believe GK is correct. Remember that we are talking man hours to cut the grass not the time that it took. 60 guys with scissors will cut it in 1 minute but it is still one man hour of work.:D

My own personal experience in the distance past is that for most residential work the optimum crew size seemed to be 2 and for larger commercial work 3. Whenever I had 3 out in the smaller residential jobs, 2 guys would be waiting around for 2 or 3 minutes while the 1 guy finishes cleaning, loading, trimming or what have you because it just wasn't worth firing up a piece of equipment or getting a tool for a couple of minutes work. Also it just takes longer to get more workers out of a truck and started working due to conversations and other general human nature issues.

The trouble is that over the course of a day these minutes tend to add up to a couple hours of lost production.

I think the smaller the crew you can send out on a job the better off you are.

[GLAN]

No.....I am not wrong.....cause his entire scenario begins and ends with 1 person, 1 lawn, 1 hour.

With GK's further explanation using 2 and then 3 men......Then they should be doing 10 - 2 hour lawns, 10 - 3 hour lawns.........but it's not. It is all based on 10 - 1 hour lawns for 1 person.

And I will repeat.........Add a man onto a 1 man crew the time per account is less. Add a man to a 2 person crew the time per job becomes less.........Untill.............you can just scroll up and reread my post.

[turfdude]

I guess it all depends on account size as well as route density. A lot of my accounts fall in the 5000 sq ft range. For the most part, I wouldn't consider a 3 man crew for lawns of this size because they would be tripping over each other unless every stop had multiple properties. Now for props of 8000-1 acre or more, I can justify a 3rd guy. We have 2 - 2men crews M-W, then add a 3rd guy to one of the crews Th& Fr.

Keep good records for a couple of weeks w/ 2, compare to adding the 3rd guy. See what your gross per man per day is for both. Also, you must answer your own question of how much you want your company to grow and how fast. Every time you grow, be ready for a few more headaches. Sooner than later, you'll find yourself doing a lot more babysitting.

[GroundKprs]

I have tracked times on every job for 25 years (and still do, to see if I am slowing down with age, LOL). And I've timed the same jobs with 1, 2 or 3 people. If you do not have numbers to back up your arguement, you're just wasting typing time.

The simple fact is, if you have 3 one man crews, each working 10 hours a day, you cannot accomplish the same work in 10 hours with one 3 man crew, because of the extra few minutes of loading and unloading at each job, and the extra windshield time for 3 guys to go from job to job.

This has to be calculated for each business, and of course will depend on the sizes of property serviced and the density of service areas. Even in one business, you may find it best to run some one man crews, some twos or threes, and maybe even larger ones.

To argue that a particular sized crew is best is small minded. You need to calculate for your own setup to get the most profitable arrangement for yourself. The larger the crew, the higher your payroll will be to accomplish your work; but you do save by not having extra truck and trailer expenses. The astute businessman will know when to add the next truck, if he tracks his numbers properly.

[GLAN]

1 or 2 man crews are cost prohibitive.

Set up dump truck and trailer....$50,000
Equipment........$10,000
Insurance for the truck and trailer.......aprox $5,000 annualy.

Better to have the 3 man crew or more.........Equipment needed for them.......

I don't understand how you can say that you have a guy standing around?

I run a 5 man cutting crew.........Average turf area 3,500 - 4,000 sqft. Even at one stop there is no one standing for any length of time.....And they average 40 per day just under 40 hours. 4, 10 hour days.

Doing my work with your method I would have to setup minimum 3 crews. 2 more dump trucks than I have now.....I would absolutely need 1 more trailer. Add to that the equipment.....more mowers than I actualy need.......more line trimmers than I actualy need........more blowers than I actualy need.........more hand tools than I actualy need.....

More over head.......more liability just to do the work I have now.

Makes no sense to me........I would still need the men. But now have the expense of more trucks, equipment, service, repairs, gas, Insurance......Parking rent and so on.

The additional over head would blow me away and put me out of business.

I wouldn't send out a 1 man crew to begin with........can't expect 1 person to remain completely focused all day every day. Same goes with 2 man crew. What if 1 is having an off day.......The other one gonna pick up the slack for the entire day? What if 1 is sick a day or a couple days? You gonna stop what you have to do to work on the cutting crew?

Working like that you become a slave to your business and crews. Cause you pickup the slack where it is needed. 1 person don't show up. You fill in........What if 2 don't show? What if 1 has an appointment for what ever reason.......You stop your scheduled work?

I would be damned to stop my scheduled work to sit on the maintenance crew a day......As it is I don't have a back up driver so I am a slave to the crew when the time comes.

And who the hell realy cares if at any given stop in the day 1 man stands waiting 1, 2 or 3 minutes.....The men under my employ are not animals

[GLAN]

Originally posted by GroundKprs

To argue that a particular sized crew is best is small minded.


Easy there GK cause that would go for everyone involved with this thread.


In closing

You stated your self the added expense for Truck, trailer and all that goes with that.

So for Pelicans situation........What was more cost effective? Adding a guy to the crew or adding a guy and buying a truck, trailer and equipment to go with it?

Wonder why you accuse me of arguing?

[Mark Oomkes]

Originally posted by GLAN
No.....I am not wrong.....cause his entire scenario begins and ends with 1 person, 1 lawn, 1 hour.

With GK's further explanation using 2 and then 3 men......Then they should be doing 10 - 2 hour lawns, 10 - 3 hour lawns.........but it's not. It is all based on 10 - 1 hour lawns for 1 person.

And I will repeat.........Add a man onto a 1 man crew the time per account is less. Add a man to a 2 person crew the time per job becomes less.........Untill.............you can just scroll up and reread my post.

Let's get away from the minutes and hours and talk about dollars per hour. (Even though this comes down to minutes and hours).

FOR MY BUSINESS\CUSTOMERS, even though GLAN is absolutely correct that more trucks\mowers add overhead, I can not beat the dollars per hour that a 1 man crew makes me vs a 2 man or especially a 3 man crew. There is the inevitable conversations occuring when getting out of the truck and during unloading and not everyone getting finished at the same time. My employees are not animals, either, but I do expect them to do their best while making me money so I can pay them for their day's work that they provided me. And yes I can get sort of anal about minutes because minutes add up to hours add up to losing me money--and because they are required to be paid for the time they worked, and the people I owe money to (overhead) that only leaves one other piece of the pie for that money to come out of--MY PROFIT.

I would agree that arguing one size crew is small minded--including myself, because I don't always think about others situations, only my own, and how GLAN is providing a different type of the same service to his customers. I just wanted Steve to be aware of some other methods\theories before he started his 3 man crew or adding another crew.

[HardDaysKnight]

Originally posted by GLAN
1 or 2 man crews are cost prohibitive.

Set up dump truck and trailer....$50,000
Equipment........$10,000
Insurance for the truck and trailer.......aprox $5,000 annualy.

Better to have the 3 man crew or more.........Equipment needed for them.......

I don't understand how you can say that you have a guy standing around?

I run a 5 man cutting crew.........Average turf area 3,500 - 4,000 sqft. Even at one stop there is no one standing for any length of time.....And they average 40 per day just under 40 hours. 4, 10 hour days.

Doing my work with your method I would have to setup minimum 3 crews. 2 more dump trucks than I have now.....I would absolutely need 1 more trailer. Add to that the equipment.....more mowers than I actualy need.......more line trimmers than I actualy need........more blowers than I actualy need.........more hand tools than I actualy need.....

More over head.......more liability just to do the work I have now.

Makes no sense to me........I would still need the men. But now have the expense of more trucks, equipment, service, repairs, gas, Insurance......Parking rent and so on.

The additional over head would blow me away and put me out of business.

I wouldn't send out a 1 man crew to begin with........can't expect 1 person to remain completely focused all day every day. Same goes with 2 man crew. What if 1 is having an off day.......The other one gonna pick up the slack for the entire day? What if 1 is sick a day or a couple days? You gonna stop what you have to do to work on the cutting crew?

Working like that you become a slave to your business and crews. Cause you pickup the slack where it is needed. 1 person don't show up. You fill in........What if 2 don't show? What if 1 has an appointment for what ever reason.......You stop your scheduled work?

I would be damned to stop my scheduled work to sit on the maintenance crew a day......As it is I don't have a back up driver so I am a slave to the crew when the time comes.

And who the hell realy cares if at any given stop in the day 1 man stands waiting 1, 2 or 3 minutes.....The men under my employ are not animals

Everything written here makes total sense to me. And if we
get to the point where we are getting irate with a few minutes
here and there of unproductivity, we will lose men real fast.
Keep in mind the many differences we have as far as regions
go. Very rural to almost urban can change drastically how we approach our daily routine.

[Mark Oomkes]

Originally posted by HardDaysKnight
Everything written here makes total sense to me. And if we
get to the point where we are getting irate with a few minutes
here and there of unproductivity, we will lose men real fast.
Keep in mind the many differences we have as far as regions
go. Very rural to almost urban can change drastically how we approach our daily routine.

Keep in mind your own words about regional differences. I do not have any problem at all keeping single man crews focused and productive. Most of them like it, they are wholly responsible for the work being performed and willing to take the bad with the good.

Didn't say I get irate, said I get anal and make sure they watch their times which is really my profit.

[HardDaysKnight]

Originally posted by Mark Oomkes
Keep in mind your own words about regional differences. I do not have any problem at all keeping single man crews focused and productive. Most of them like it, they are wholly responsible for the work being performed and willing to take the bad with the good.

Didn't say I get irate, said I get anal and make sure they watch their times which is really my profit.

Mark, what I meant about regional difs is that where I and
Glan live there are much smaller lots, on street parking
etc. as opposed to your immediate area as well as others.
I never said you got irate, I said IF WE START getting....
There is no reason for anger here, just an excellent opportunity
to learn and trade ideas. Johnny

[GLAN]

Mark

I won't pretend to know how things look in Grand Rapids Michigan.......the developements and how they are designed and all that. Or the expectations of the property owners.

I understand your point, it is the same as GK's. You know what? You both are correct. Cost and productivity, 1 man is going to get it done with the least labor cost. But......we can't just factor into a job just the labor costs. LOL. you both know that.

Now I am guessing that your routes are kinda spread out. That is why the need for multiple crews of 1 or 2 men. And your productivity is not that large or needs to be in a day. Like someone mentioned earlier, they do half of what I do in a day for the week. It's all good.

We set up our routes to best suite our needs. If I were in a more spread out rural area.......I think there would be little doubt I would be running multiple crews of only a couple men per crew. It would be nearly impossible to have one large crew all over the place....That would not be cost effective.

My situation is that everything is very close. The only exception is a large grouping that is about 15 - 20 minutes away. In fact in the late 80's we were doing some 60+ more homes when I ran 2, 3 man maintenance crews. There is no way I could get that productivity from the one 5 man crew. Unless.........I develope the groupings more and expand on them.

Now this thread was to assist Pelican make a decision for instant ability to take on more customers. There is no other way to do that than to hire the 3rd man for the crew. My whole point through all this was that 2 men will do more than 1 man. 3 men will do more than 2 men......as a single crew. This is absolute.....no way around the fact that adding a person increases productivity. That is what Pelican needed to do immediately.

He didn't need to buy another truck, trailer and equipment to send out another crew. Take on the work now, set money asside and when there is the need for the next move.........You buy the truck, trailer and equipment........and hire that 4th person and now send out 2, 2 man crews.

Now I am assuming that what Pelican is describing about turning down work is not the amount that warrants an immediate second route........He has to sign them up first. Not like he bought a route.

[Pelican]

Maybe if I add some additional info it will help sort things out.

Yes, I was looking for an immediate band-aid. I've broken into a couple high end development and the business is snowballing. I got a call from one of the new accounts where the client said he had had 3 previous landscapers doing his place and my guys are blowing them away. His neighbors are signing up about one a week. I can't pass this up, most of my accounts require a 5 to 10 minute drive in between, here I can service currently 7 accounts moving the truck only a few hundred yards, in fact my zero turn operator just drives to the next job. These are 2 1/2 to 3 acre lots and take about 40 minutes to service with the 2 man crew.

From reading what I've seen here, I'll probably eventually put together another crew, perhaps 1 man to start. It's unfortunate all this extra business is coming when I'm already tied up replacing aged equipment, this has capitol in a depleted state. The old equipment isn't worth keeping even for secondary work, it's become too unreliable and reliability is what I've built the business on. I'll try to get through this season with the 3rd man or if profits allow put together the second outfit a bit sooner.

I'm grateful for all the responses here. Thanks!

[GLAN]

Dude


Do what's best for you...

Increase productivity.........keep expenses down.

[HardDaysKnight]

I wish you well and it's great to hear you're obtainining
these new accounts and possibly more.
I hope you come up with a solution and have a very
profitable year. Good Luck!!

[Mark Oomkes]

Great thread, great differing opinions, great discussion.

GLAN and HardDaysKnight, I agree with what you have both said. I was small minded thinking my way is the best because it is for me. I also realize that this was to help Steve right away.

But, even though this is the best way to immediately increase production, it is not necessarily the best way in the long run and I guess I should have stated that better. Once again this depends on the regional differences. It may or may not be best, only Steve will be able to determine that by checking his times both ways.

I know exactly where he is at right now, growing with older equipment, possibly limited capital--not sure where he is on this, not trying to grow, but not wanting to turn down good work, either. If he is not careful, he will lose more money and not be able to make it up by just throwing a third person on a crew and never going back to make sure he is still meeting his budgeted times. It is possible that where he is at right now with his crews working 12 hours a day, that he most likely has enough work for a second crew. I know you can't go out and buy a whole new mowing setup overnight, but he needs to look at how much work he has right now and be aware that the third person is short term and not necessarily, but possibly the long term solution.

I think I mentioned it before someplace in this thread, by actually scheduling our crews for 40 hours worth of work and greatly reducing (not eliminating) OT, I have turned our company around financially. I contribute this mostly to the elimination of tons of OT and getting our work done in the budgeted amount of time.

[Bill Schwab]

Mark:

Somehow we gotta talk ole Mr. Carver into joining this forum. He would be an asset!

[Mark Oomkes]

Bill, only if we can get him to use paragraphs. :D lol

I agree, though. Let's see what we can do.

[Pelican]

I caught a break!!!

I was at my equipment dealer's and someone had posted a used machine. It's a 6 month old Skag 61 hydro, 12 hours and $2000 off new price! It was too good to pass up, so by the end of the week, I'll have and the new machines should be in by then too. We should be able to squeeze them all on the trailer and now I can have the third guy grab a mower when the trimming is done. It will really help on the larger jobs!

My luck usually doesn't run this way......

[Bill Schwab]

Pelican:

Are you a Mark Martin fan?

[Pelican]

LOL! What was your first clue, Bill?

I reread my post and realize I even sound a bit like him!!:D

[Mark Oomkes]

Hey Bill, I looked in the member list and Rick is registered, just has never posted.

[Bill Schwab]

When Mark was running the ASA my sign painter lettered his cars. He is our favorite driver, I only wish they did not degrade him by driving the wood wagon instead of the Valvoline car.

He is truly a genuine guy, nice as can be and wqe will be sorry to see him leave Rousch next year, but them Matt is comming up in a Rousch truck.


Mark:

We gotta rattle Ricks cage to post then. Those 16 page long brain wrenching posts he does are missed!

[Pelican]

I was disappointed in the new sponsor too Bill, I refuse to wear one of the T shirts! There's a rumor floating around they have trouble keeping the hood down on that car.......;)

I've been rooting for Mark for the very reasons you've listed, nobody ever has a bad thing to say about him. Tony Stewart even sent him a sideways compliment to him yesterday. I remember Dale Sr. calling him a "class act" when asked about him once. It would be great if he could pull off the Championship before he retires, he just needs a little luck to roll his way!

[Crazygator]

Pelican,
How is everything working out?

Funny, you got the point that I was going to reply with. Adding a third man and another type of machine. I am sure with your third guy and machine you will get it all together.

I hope you get it all under control. Sounds like a nice problem to have, but can add much stress.