Circular Stairs

[Lanelle]

I'm working on a residential project that involves a patio with concentric half-circle steps coming off the house. There will be a five foot radius landing at the sliding door, decending with four 18" tread steps. Client has asked for Celtik steps ---(gotta love those product brochure pics). What's the best method to do this?

[Stonehenge]

Can you scan a pic of the design thus far, so we can have a look, and better understand what's going on?

[Lanelle]

I hope this posts so that it can be clearly seen. This is not the entire patio. I'll post details separately.

[Stonehenge]

Looks like a very grand entrance!

[Stonehenge]

I'm poking around trying to find out about the Celtik, as it's not a product found around here. It's a solid unit, correct?

A few years ago I took Versa-Lok up on their advice to install steps using their pedestal method, making a single base prep, and just stacking block to build the steps. Way more expensive, but also much, much faster, and less (no) chance of any settling or movement in the multiple base preps you'd have to do with the other method.

But a project like this would require massive amounts of buried block. I'm counting 6 steps; I might be inclined to build 2 sets of pedestals, 3 steps each.

[Stonehenge]

Like this:

[Stonehenge]

How big are the Celtik units? How big are the treads? Just thought of that...D'oh :doh:

[Lanelle]

1. The current approved design has a top platform about 10 feet across the back of the house, still 5 feet in radius. The bottom step now conforms to the corners of that section of house (on left side of drawing)
2. Celtik step treads are about 12" and the client wants wider treads of about 18". Client likes Mega Bergiac for the patio.
3. Client has also discussed using a poured concrete base for the pavers but not formed up steps such as for veneered surfaces.

[Stonehenge]

How big are the Mega Bergerac?

[diginahole]

I don't see the time savings using all that extra block. You still have to compact the gravel inside the smallest radius all the way to the base. It still needs to be done in many lifts. You have just made it more difficult to maneuver the tamper in smaller areas. All that block still takes time to install. The economics don't add up to me.

I recommend careful planning of the first step to avoid having to cut the riser units as the radius gets smaller nearer the top. Cut the coping units before proceeding to the next step. You can run the saw blade through the joints of each coping unit for a perfect fit. If the next riser is installed before the coping is complete you cannot pass the blade all the way through the joint.

I have built a lot of steps like this. I don't especially like the look. I really don't like the cutting necessary to create it.

One other thing I do when installing larger radius steps is foam the joints between the riser units. If the radius is larger than the ideal for the particular unit it will leave gaps between them leaving a space for gravel to migrate later. It takes too much time to pack those joints by hand with gravel, expando foam does a great job.

[Lanelle]

Pavers: http://www.belgardhardscapes.com/belgard/home.asp?href=/belgard/residential/default.asp?go=pi

Wall: http://www.belgardhardscapes.com/belgard/residential/show.asp?type=wall&pid=16&style=Celtik+Wall&location=6

This doesn't show the step system which is a riser and a tread,each a solid unit.

[Lanelle]

diginahole,
I think the client is pretty committed to the shape of this design but not to the material. It could be stone. The house is getting a partial facade of El Dorado stone (and the steps will be touching that) which could be used for the risers but I don't know what I'd use for the tread since natural stone will look different (and better) than the manufacturered ones.

What look do you prefer or what material would you recommend?

The final design also has one less step than shown--four I think but could change depending on the final grade in the back yard there.

[Paul]

The question I have, has any one tried 18" steps?
12" works ok it could be a bit bigger, maybe 15" max but 18" starts getting to be a reach with a 6"-7" rise. I have done wider steps some out to 3'-3'6" (made out of natural stone) these are 2 step stones.

[Lanelle]

OK, I'm thinking 'out loud' about this step size topic. The client wants the steps to be more like landings. I'm not sure but it seems that a person wouldn't take the steps as strides but rather land both feet on each step (like a toddler does). Maybe because I have rather short legs, I don't expect to take long strides. What do you think works?
I'm thinking that the construction will involve using a paver behind the premade tread since they are the same thickness. Seems like a lot of extra work with lots of cutting for just an extra 6".

[Paul]

A landing would be 24"- 36" I would suggest you do a demo on a 18" step I think you would find it awkward

[BRL]

I agree with Paul. Maybe suggest a step down to a landing as Paul defines, then a step down to another landing, etc.? That would give them the landing effect they want, plus serve the purpose of getting up and down. Although that would result in some lost patio at the bottom, so maybe not.

[Stonehenge]

I like that idea.... ;)

[Rex Mann]

Lanell,

At my college alma-matter we had one set of steps, that were hard to climb unless you were running. They killed your legs if you walked them. They were called "the elephant stairs".

I have built an 18 deep step before. Instead of installing pavers behind the tread (celtic cap) install another cap behind it. Of course they'd have to be cut to fit. However, being round I would use pavers behind the caps.

I hate doing round steps so much I took all the pictures of them out of my portfolio.

Good luck with your project.

Peace,

Rex

[agla]

There is a formula for determining "correct" rise to run ratio on steps. There is an acceptable range that works. When you get out of that range it makes for awkward steps and if there is an accident guess who is responsible.

I don't have that formula in front of me, but it should be easy to find with a search engine. It has rise and run and the number 27 is in there.

[dan deutekom]

2 risers and a run should equal 27" . You can be plus or minus an inch or two and they are still comfortable steps. If you build steps that are not comfortable you will be cursed every time someone uses them.

[Lanelle]

I talked with the client today and discussed this tread width issue.
He says that it works fine for him and his wife wants to put planters on them so he wants them that wide. This is going to be expensive and so I question if he will spend the bucks on it. Hope so!

[Stonehenge]

Sounds expensive!! :$$:

Looks like a hardscape project, from the limited info I have, of $15-20K. That makes me smile. :D

[Lanelle]

I expect it to be a little over $20K. He also asked for a price of he pavers laid over concrete!! I'm already worried about settlement by the house.

[diginahole]

Lanelle,

You asked a while ago what I might do instead of the concentric circles. Here is one option.

[Stonehenge]

Jeeez! I'm slow on the draw...I just now noticed this post from Digin'. Digin - did you do that with CAD?

[diginahole]

Sure did. Just a 5 minute quicky dwg.