Inset steps the easy way

[jwholden]

Guys,

I'm going to start the inset steps on this wall on Monday and would love any tips and tricks to make the job easier, and less head scratching for me. I will be going up approx 40" and the steps will be 48" wide.

1) How do I make sure my side walls stay square and don't wiggle in and out (I was thinking about making a 4' wide form out of 2 x 4's) ?

2) Where should I put the geotextile so the fill doesn't wash out and cause my steps to settle?

3) Should I install the treads at a slight angle (higher at the back) to account for settling and proper drainage?

Any learning experiences you guys had would be greatly appreaciated.

Stonehenge,
I used the penny idea on Friday and it worked like a charm! I am curious if my wall will start to turn blue after I few months:D

Another quick note, I hit some groundwater about 6" down and had to dig down about 18" and install a12" of 1 1/4 clear stone wrapped in geotextile below the normal 6" of 3/4 process (as recommended by the manufacturer). Boy did that lock up the base!!!

Thanks for the help,

John

[Paul]

I wonder why you didn't continue the bottom of the wall to give you your first step? This locks the wall better.

[diginahole]

I'm with Paul, the bottom row should be continued for the first step. I like to eliminate the batter on the step's side walls. It keeps the steps the same width all the way up instead of progressively wider with the 5 degree batter on either side. I also like to take the side walls a unit or 2 beyond the back of the step at each level. This seems to help keep the side walls level.

If the steps are to be curved, fit the coping at each level before starting the next step. Running the saw blade between the coping units while in place makes for very tight fitting cuts. If the step behind is already in place you can't cut all the way through the joint.

Hope this helps. Looks good so far.

[Stonehenge]

Versa-Lok used to have tech specs on 2 different methods of building these steps - the pedestal method, and I don't recall the other name (but it involved prepping base for each step). After many years of building the steps by prepping a new base for each step (then being dissatisfied with the results after a few years), I switched to the pedestal method (find it here (http://www.versa-lok.com/technical_bulletinsPDF/tech2a.pdf) ). This method involves a truckload more block, but saves all kinds of time, and if there's one thing I've learned from the folks here, time is your enemy, and the one thing that should be shaved whenever possible. But most importantly, because you have to only rely on one base prep (instead of 4 or 5), you end up with more durable steps that are less apt to move and settle on you.

You can save money with this method by ordering plain grey block (if V-Lok is the block you're using) to use as the part of the construction you won't see.

So to make a short story long, build it that way and where you place your geotextile won't matter, because the steps aren't going to settle. Just worry about placing fabric for drainage between your clear stone and the wall.

As for the treads, I like keeping them level, as with the rest of the wall.

BTW John, welcome to GTX!! I hope you find lots of insight and help here. Looks like a very nice project you've got going, and also looks like you aren't into taking shortcuts, which is great to see in a hardscaper. Good luck on this project!

I haven't had any walls turn blue on me yet usiung pennies, but nickels or dimes are out of the question... :$$:

Jeff

[jwholden]

Well, I'm up to step number 5 out of 8 in the wall, photo to come later. I've built steps before but definitely underestimated the time involved on this one. I've been careful and my two sidewalls are less than 1/4" off on either side of the 4' step (is this good, bad or ugly).

I think I should look into versa-lok block because it is a huge PITA to build a step, add base, fabric, etc. I would love to do the foundation idea but Techo-bloc doesn't let me get away with it. I have ended up building and glueing the coping to each step before I can move on to the next.

Anyway, the project is going to look awsome when it's done and it will definitely get me some jobs in the future, not to mention the valuable learning experience .:p

[Stonehenge]

In looking at the tech specs for Techo-Bloc ( http://www.techo-bloc.com/flash/techospecs/ang/wall_retaining_walls.pdf ), it looks like you should be able to construct steps that same way - just don't use any of the PVC inserts, use adhesive instead. If you're building it yourself, the cost might be prohibitive, but if you're paying your guys to build it, it is likely less expensive then what your labor is costing you.

Though I know nothing of Techo-Bloc; it's not available in my neck of the woods (though it looks gorgeous ;) )

That'll be a slick looking project - be sure to post lots of pics here or in the Public Gardens forum when you're done. :camera:

[PSUscaper]

Hello,

Pretty familiar with techo here so I'll mention a few things.

First of all, be aware of the block your using..........creta is only a 5" rise, so it kinda makes a small step. other than a small flights/garden steps, I usually don't use 5" steps as they feel very awkward when travelling down a longer flight. (if you have yours done, walk down and tell me what you think....Don't you feel like 'skipping' a step every know and then???)

I usually try to push people into the mini creta for this reason (mini is a 3" block, doubled up makes a 6", which too me feels a little better)

I'm with everyone else......use the wall as the first step.....cuts down on prep time and seems more stable.

now, not sure how high the wall is going, but I just did this. I built a 30" wall out of creta, then used mini-creta for the steps to give me the desired effect (using the mini will give you 5-6" steps as opposed to 6-5" steps) It worked out very nicely, have to get a picture up.....

Also be warned....if your are curving your wing walls, be aware of the limitations of the block......techo has 3 diff't sizes....you will need the small ones to cut a tight turn......if you don't plan correctly and use them in the wall, you will be cutting the larger ones down to make the radius.......a pain in the ass (or worse, buying another pallet just to get small pieces). Also, I will say this. .......I kind of have mixed feelings on using the turned walls now because the turns are ALL small block, opposed to the wall which is mixed......it kind of drew my attention and I can't say I was 'completely' happy with that.

Another option I did before was mixed creta with min-creta.....kind of a striped effect on the walll. What was nice, was I was able to get 8" steps (which I kind of needed to meet grade).
Kind of a nice option when needed.

As for the 'pedistool' method that stonehenge methods..........quite frankly, Techo is just too dam expensive to try it with.......now, with versa-lok, that's another story.

I've tried it a few times and have mixed feelings. First, I think 4-5 steps is the max.........because after that, it seems like you are burying a 'crap' load of block. I've done a set of 8 steps once where I did a 'deuce' pedistool......built the first 4 using the method, then build the next 4 as a seperate pedistool, all as one continuance set of steps....I was feeling a little experimental that day I guess.

Second of all, due to 'imperfections in the block', I think that when you stack that many on top of each other, by the 4th step, you start getting blocks that aren't sitting level.......all it takes is one little 'concrete booger' on top of one of the bottom blocks to make a disaster for you on the top one.

I do support the method for short sets of steps though (under 4), as you can really stack them in quickly and without any thought.

I will try to get some pics of that creta / mini creta step combo wall I talked about.

steve

[Stonehenge]

Steve, for the Techo-Bloc, is there some other mfg that makes block to the same height, in a cheapo grey, non-tumbled version? If so, use those for the pedistal method. That's what I do for V-Lok, too. I but the std grey for all the units that are being buried - $.25 or so cheaper per unit for non-tumbled, much cheaper if comparing to tumbled.

[jwholden]

STeve,

Great Post! That is just the info I was hoping to get from someone.

I am onto my second flight of stairs and am using my experience on the first to make it much easier. I discovered that when building the steps I can fit my level in the groove of the block to keep them straight, MUCH less 1/4" trims on the risers.

I don't know if your Techo block has this "problem" or not but a lot of the blocks have the back ridge worn/chipped/poorly manufactured off. It's tough to install the upper courses without rocking when the back sits down 1/4" because the concrete is gone. I have noticed that a lot of the smaller blocks have this problem and the bigger blocks are in an acceptable norm for this.

When you build your steps with the pedistal method do you build 3-4 pedistals with the block and set the block about 2" apart between rows? I was going to try this but was concerned about having a 2" gap between the blocks as far as shifting blocks and water collecting and softening my base or freeze thaw cycles doing some bad things.

You are definitely right about the Creta blocks making the risers too small. I find I take them two at a time. It was only after I finished the stairs that I started to think about this. I'll tell the client that that is the way this block has to be done and it is more aesthetic (sp) anyway. Next steps I will use the minicreta for the risers.

Here's a shot of where I am this morning.

How about that weather!

Thanks,

John

[jwholden]

The picture! ;)

[Stonehenge]

Looks great! ;)

[PSUscaper]

Lookin good!

I know what you are talking about with the defective block..........I've been noticing a increasing 'slopiness' in Techo-bloks over the past year myself......I have a feeling they are trying to keep up with demand and are starting to cut a few corners here and there.

I just try not to use the broken/chipped ones on the top if at all possible....thougt easier said than done......if it is a problem, I try rearanging the cap pieces so that a larger size one will span over the chip and not rock.

One of my biggest complaints this year with techo is that they are DIRTY! I don't remember them ever being this bad....its almost as if they are being splattered with concrete or something. A lot of block have little globs of dried concrete on them.....others just have a tremendous amount of dust on them, that has to be scraped off. Kind of a problem because the glue won't adhere to them. Have to pain-sakingly scrub many of them before using.

My biggest complaint is with the grooves........because of all the dirt and splatters, the pins don't fit properly. Again you have to scrape the grooves out to get them to work.....

And don't get me started on the grooves in the large corner unit blocks........ever notice how the pins don't seem to fit??? Besides the fact the groove end half way down(as it has too), it seems the molds or something are off on these units.....always seems to be happening.

If you need info on the pedistool method, I think Versa-lok has specs on the web. If not, you can request a nice little spec packet from them with a nice tech book, copy sheets of specs, a CD rom, and my favorite.......little miniature versa-lok blocks made out of plastic.......a blast to play with! (just wish they came with little pins to complete the effect)

steve

[Stonehenge]

If you want to use the pedistal method, I linked to it in my 6/22 post in this thread. ;)

Whenever we're using adhesives, we always bring along a handheld leaf blower to handle the dust prior to applying the adhesive. I used to wet and scrub, then wait 2 hours. :rrr:

[jwholden]

I finished the wall that I posted about a few weeks ago and it came out awsome. The job will definitely get me more work (which is good because the learning curve and underestimating the time involved almost got me on this one).

I wanted to thank you all for your advice on this wall. I can't tell you how glad I am to have a place to listen to guys who know this stuff better than me.

Thanks,

John:cigar:

[jwholden]

One more

[Stonehenge]

That's a great looking project!

Great design, great execution. And yeah, there's some learning curve with this stuff - each time you'll get a little quicker, and do a little better job. But as far as quality you look like you're already off to a great start.

Make sure you make use of all these pictures you're taking, to show off the work and educate your clients. :)

Enjoy your :cigar: you earned it!


Jeff

[Chuck Sinclair]

Nice work looks good!!

[PSUscaper]

Looks great! Better than most companies who do it all the time in fact. I think your off to a great start.

steve