Mambo-jamba stones - advice on planting them

[Stonehenge]

I've landed a project where we're doing some hardscapes, but we're also planting some stones. By planting, I mean taking some long, narrow stones (anywhere from 6'-10' in length, 2'-3' diameter) and planting them into the ground 2-3'+, so that they are pointing skyward.

The idea is to create a bit of a spectacle, where people wonder if the stones are tribal in nature, religious, constructed by aliens :alien: , or whatever.

But I'm wondering how to best plant them. I would imagine the heaviest stone will weigh as much as 4.5 tons. Would this be as simple as digging below the forst line and sticking them in the ground? Would you pour any kind of footing?

For placing them into the ground we plan on having a short, sloped trench that we'll drag the stone into, then chain it to a truck to pull, while lifting on the other end with a skid steer.

[dan deutekom]

Did a job in a parkette that had this exact same situation. Our skidsteer could not lift the stone but it could muscle it around on the ground and lift 1 end of them. We just dug a hole about 4' deep and then pushed the stone to the hole. Then the skidsteer just picked up the one end. Filled in around the stone. A little pushing with skidsteer to make sure the stone was straight. Packed around stone with a jumping jack and then every thing was golden:D . We did 3 of them in a grouping about 7 years ago and they havn't moved.

[Paul]

I need a bit more info? What kind of stone are you using? how Thick is it, give me HxWxD.

[Stonehenge]

H - 6-10', 2-3' diameter. Type of stone - as yet uncertain. Open to ideas.

[Paul]

So your looking at boulders, not Lannon stone.

[Paul]

A 10' x3'x3' grainite boulder that size would weigh around 8 tons, I don't think your going to move it with a skid steer and a truck. For safety start looking for a crane in your area, or a good size excavator. We have set Lannon stone up like that with our LS 190 but the stones where only 6'x4'x2' we figured they weighted about 4 tons.

[Stonehenge]

Hmmm.... Budgetary constraints may not allow us to go hog-wild on subs with cranes - we may look for other alternatives to granite. I'd like to be able to tackle these ourselves with the eqpt we have.

[agla]

Is Stonehenge building Stonehenge?

[Stonehenge]

Heh-heh-heh. Maybe. :)

[PSUscaper]

Hello,

No doubt about it........I would call up my excavator and have him stop buy with a larger machine to set them up.

C'mon stonehenge............your always preaching about how time is money...................your telling us your gonna waste a good day (possible a few broken machines/trucks) on doing this yourself rather than just making a call, have the right machine come in, and have it done in a day (while the rest of your guys are doing something else making you $ instead of standing around watching your play with big rocks)

I understand the effect your going for.......we have a golf course I do a lot of work in and at the entrance ways they stand rocks up just like your talking about. Looks pretty cool.........and they did them in about 20 mins each with a large track hoe.

steve

[Stonehenge]

I had a heart to heart with one of our stone suppliers - he says he can quarry some stones that will be 2-3' wide, 12" thick, 9-10' tall. We walked through his formula for weight and they came out to be around 3,000 pounds (limestone). Heck, my skidder can lift 3,500, so I'm back in the game.

And yes, time is money, but I can't tell you how much I love installing BIG things. We had to manhandle some Sienna coping units today to make a staircase. Down a steep slope, wheelbarrow access only. I had a blast. :)

I dunno what it is, but it's like I've had a few drinks when I'm working with big stones - happy, joking, a bit goofy even. I say all this because I really want to install these stones. I don't want to watch someone else do it. I don't care if we lose money doing this portion - we'll make it up elsewhere. This is a part of the job that makes it a real blast.

You don't want me to not have fun, do you?

The quarry is going to select some stones for me to look at next week, to see if they have the look I'm after.

[PSUscaper]

I understand the feeling completely! but............

Too bad you weren't closer......these rocks out in E. PA are absolutely beatiful.............and FREE! (well, except for trucking, loading, etc. etc. etc......lol) This place is like a gold mine of landscape boulders.......everyhouse they have to hammer out the foundation for, and end up with piles of gorgeous rocks......I've never seen such great rock....I've been working a deal to have a few loads dropped off in exchange for a few plans.....

What pisses me off the most is they set up a crusher plant and are pulverizing all these beutiful rocks so that they can have crused stone........those bastards!!! there should be a law or something!

[dan deutekom]

Jeff

Go for it! You will have a blast.

A BOY AND HIS TOYS:joystick:

Dan

[BRL]

I bet if we traced way way back, we'd find that Stone's lineage started in Egypt maybe? ;) Now those guys would be laughing at us for trying to decide between a crane, skidder or excavator to move a big stone, or be extremely jealous that we have those choices LOL.

[Stonehenge]

It's funny - I was thinking - jeez, they built Stonehenge without the help of machinery (unless it was the :alien: :alien: :alien: building it), this shouldn't be so tough.

[scl]

I think the idea of wooden poles, grease, and slaves wouldn't sit well with OSHA or the Department of labor.LOL. What a cool project. DO you have a larger loader tractor that you coulkd pull with form the back side so you could keep raising with a straight angle while you push with the skid? Or another skid? Might keep the rock from kicking, but it shouldn't be a problem if you start in a hole anyway. Sorry, just random thoughts.

[Just Turned Pro]

I don't have any direct advice, but will point you in the direction of a similar project.

A while back I took a course at a local community college. The instructor was a major contributor to a Buddhist Sanctuary that included several large stone structures including a Dolmen and some stone circles. The website for the retreat has some info on them and also has links to additional sites on stone circles and related info. You may find some good info there.

http://www.earthsanctuary.org/

Select the "Sacred Space" option on the menu to the left and then select the type of structure you are interested in.

[Stonehenge]

JTP - that's an excellent site!

I'm going to bookmark that one as a spot to go for design inspiration.

We had a client interested in a paver labrynth cut into his backyard. However, recognizing that the amount of detail work involved in what he was after would take much longer than any regular patio of equal size, the price I quote him sent him running for the hills. Just as well - I wouldn't want to do a project like that unless we were well compensated.

[Stonehenge]

Ok, folks - here are three of the mambo-jamba stones... :D

The bottom one has a length of over 12'. :D :D

[agla]

:alien: I hope that this will not be used to call in the mother ship!

I can't wait to see the creation that you have in store for us.

[PSUscaper]

Just got the july issue of 'landscape Contractor National magazine'

In it, they have a articl on a humungo fountain.....in the middle of the fountain they had 3 massive stones protruding out of it and the water jets shooting up around them with all kinds of lights shining up out of the foutain up at the rocks and water............

Hey,....maybe some water around these babies?????????

steve

[Stonehenge]

That would be slick, wouldn't it? :woot:

My guys were speechless when they paged me from the quarry to tell me they couldn't fit all the stones on our 2 trucks. Apparently one of the stones is quite a bit heavier than we originally planned.

They sounded like Saturday morning cartoons: 'b-b-b-b-bbig-BIG-BIG'

This is gonna be fun. :cool2:

[Stonehenge]

Today was Mambo-Jamba planting day!! :woot: :woot:

Here's the first stone going into place:

[Stonehenge]

That stone was a bit over 4,000#. Our skid steer was able to lift it with the chains, because it brough the center of gravity closer to the wheels.

We were able to take it off the truck with just the forks, but with the other 4 guys hanging off the back end of the skid steer to balance the load.

We ended up not planting one of the stones, and instead found a replacement; the stone we rejected was 10,000#, and I was not sure we'd be able to unload that one from the truck without doing real damage to the truck, the skid steer, or the operator (which for today was me!!)

Here's another shot of that stone being placed:

[Stonehenge]

Packing a couple of stones in....

[Stonehenge]

I'll show off the finished product once we have some of the plantings in, the pavers are complete, etc. This was as much fun as I'd hoped. :) :)

[Stonehenge]

Ok, one more pic for now.

That's yours truly atop that stone....:huh:

[dan deutekom]

Looks great!

Funny how much easier these jobs are then you imagined once you start doing them. Looks like you did it just like I said in my first post. I bet you had fun:cigar:

[Stonehenge]

Yup - actually, from your input we rented a jumping jack/rammer as well, so we could pack the narrow gap between the stone and the sides of the hole. Once filled up, we ran our big compactor over everything.

3/4- as the filler, with clay for the top 4-6", as a 'cap' (ala Paul's input from another thread).

[Paul]

Don't you like playing with little stones now:)

People could never figure out why I enjoy installing natural stone so much, once you get the hang of it they go in fast and look great.

A few more like this and you'll be looking for a bigger machine.

[Stonehenge]

I already am. The guns on the machine pictured on top of that stone are already starting to wear out.... ;)

Putting that stuff in was a blast. :woot:

[dan deutekom]

I wasn't here for the installation of this one but I am quite intimate with it. It is granite and has a hole bored down the centre so that water is pumped out of it creating a very pleasant water feature. Size is 12' tall by about 7' diameter.

[Stonehenge]

Wow - that is cool!! And knowing how much our stones weighed, that one must've been a real monster! :frank:

I would guess that stone would weigh in somewhere around 75-80,000 pounds. Ours were 3,000-4,500.

I bet it's a fun one to just sit and look at.

We were at our big stone project for a little while today - I guess they've become the hit of the neighborhood - they've met all kinds of neighbors they never knew they had, from them all stopping in to see what the heck was going on in their yard.

[dan deutekom]

Every time I look at it I wonder if I could get our Case 1845C skidsteer to move it just a little to the left;)

[Just Turned Pro]

That looks familiar? Is it in a park in Vancouver?

[dan deutekom]

Well it is Canada. It is Rosetta Mclain Gardens. The best kept secret in Toronto.

[Tim]

I have no idea how load or unload these :frank: stones, but I have talked with a contractor down in Texas about how he transported a boulder the size of a small garage. They used a monster oil well rigging truck. I have never seen one before, but it must only feed at night!

[Stonehenge]

I have a new issue I want to address with the mambo-jamba stones - because they are limestone, the stone is in layers, and because we placed them vertically, the seams between those layers are now exposed to the elements. Nothing bad has happened to them, but I can see how something might over time. Specifically, I'm concerned about water getting into the seams and splitting the stones in winter. Is there some kind of sealant that would help to protect these seams?

[Bill Schwab]

Get a 330 Cat excavator with a 360° rotator and a claw bucket. Grab em and set em anywhich way ya can.

[Paul]

I wouldn't worry about it. We have had stones set on and in rivers and lakes without any problems. Locally Sears Headquarters business park in Hoffman Estates has had stones set vertically for the past 20 years without any problems.

[VoodooChile]

I wouldn't doubt Paul on this, except I have noticed that older pieces of flagstone I remove/replace frequently have seperated into thinner sheets.

Of course this stuff is set horizontally at ground level, perhaps increasing the chances for water to soak in, freeze, expand and cause the sheeting.

The vertical stones probably shed all rainwater, and most snow melt, and don't absorb enough water to suffer the ravages of freeze/thaw...just a theory.;)

[Prosno]

I think your project is absoloutly wild, we work with large stone when we can and its more fun than any other projects we handle. I'll post some pics of our work when I can. Stone work like that isnt something the average landscaper does so its very different and also an added nitch. looks great!

[Stonehenge]

Thanks Prosno - It was a blast to put in.

[greg9504]

Pulling up this thread...

For Dan D. you mentioned digging a 4' hole. Did you actually put 4' of stone in the ground? Or did you fill the hole up with crushed stone a bit (1'-2') before placing the stone?

For Stonehenge - It looks like the biggest stone is sticking out about 8' above ground. How much is below?

I'm looking to do something similar and just can't image hiding 4' (frost line here) of stone below ground. So I am thinking of concrete with stainless pins or setting it in wet concrete.

I set this smaller granite column. I think total height was about 4', about 3' above ground. I set it in concrete about 7" - 12" thick (bottom wasn't flat) to stabilize it. It's hard to tell from the picture but I then added about 5" of soil (clay) over the concrete ring to bring it to grade. I realize this isn't ideal. I had the stone, decided I wasn't going to use it for what I had originally planed and next thing I know I'm mixing concrete at 10:00 pm and setting the stone ;)

Anyway I plan to grab 2 longer stones in the 7'-8' range and put them near this one. Hopefully spending more time planing things this time :)

http://www.carter-engineering.com/images/stonefromquarry/belmontrose/belmontrose_granite_column1.jpg

Thanks.

[dan deutekom]

We put about a foot of "A" gravel in the hole, compacted it and then put 3' of the stone into the ground surrounded by "A" gravel that was compacted.

As a side note that old crane truck in your picture looks very familiar. Did it use to be purple in its younger years? And by the looks of the interior it was origionally white?

[Stonehenge]

Greg - it's a lot easier, faster, cheaper and more reliable to bury a good portion of the stone. You are correct - the tallest stone has about 8 1/2' exposed. 3 1/2' of that stone is in the ground, for a total of 12' in length.

[mark allen]

Dude, you are in one of the coolest states in the union wit many choices of quarries.... Yes I too am a cheesehead...... I found a quarry from Michels Construction just east of Waterloo, WI... it is the coolest quarry you will ever be in... hands down and probably only an hour away from you .... it is quarry #100 fro Michels... the stone is granite looking, real tough stuff, they grind it for railroad balast ( the purple stuff) also they do the shoreline of Lake Michigan with it... when I was there this spring they had a boulder the size of full size van getting loaded on a truck to Brazil. This place is worth driving to, if not just to see it. Take a truck not a car) The stone also has this shimmering effect in the sunlight with water features. Man you got me on a roll.... the stuff they blast is real angular and as long as you can move it around....it gets heavy faster than you think... it is perfect for what you are describing... or future projects..... make the call ... 1-920-478-2084.. ask for Steve.. he will give you a personal tour.. did I say it was worth it?...

I am just as pumped about this damn quarry as you are about your dang job.... check it out. you will freak out and and ... well who knows......

[greg9504]

Dan I think the truck was originally yellow by the interior and spent the first part of it's life in the Toronto area. The previous owner did the quicky white paint job. Thanks for the info.

Stonehenge - I was hoping to get a column about 8'x2'x2' which would weigh around 2.6 mt, which the crane on the truck can handle. At 12'x2'x2' it gets to just under 4 mt, which is over the rated capacity. Perhaps I'll look for a column that isn't as wide or tappers so I can get something in the 10'-12' range to get the above ground height I want.

Thanks.

[mark allen]

Michels Quarry in Waterloo WI ... take the guys and the trucks on the next rain day

[mdvaden]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
Hmmm.... Budgetary constraints may not allow us to go hog-wild on subs with cranes - we may look for other alternatives to granite. I'd like to be able to tackle these ourselves with the eqpt we have.

Some good cranes services are not that expensive.

If the holes are predug, you may only need the crane for one or two hours.

[waterfall larry]

Here is a thought that I haven't seen up yet.

How about manufactured rock?

Gfrc manufactured rock is very light weight , 2 to 4 men could set it no need for a bob cat or watever, possibly no repairs to turf from a bob cat and etc. When you figure in the time and ALL of the costs of natural rock, manufactured rock might be cost effective.

I make my own rocks on site in place. I am working on a waterfall enhancement for a small pond. When I do the rock myself I will have very little in materials, a lot of the money will go to me and I will have created a really awesomely shaped rock / waterfall.

To find out more about gfrc manufactured rock go to google and type in gfrc manufactured rock.

Just be careful some professionally made gfrc rock doesn't look 100% real.

You might also check out the manufactured rock page of my web site. Go to paradisegardens4u.com to waterfalls construction and to the bottom and click on the big brown rock.
I sorted through all the web sites and have a list of the good gfrc web sites.

[dan deutekom]

Greg

What a small world. Got talking to my son and he said the interior was originally yellow. Old age is making some memories kind of fuzzy;)

I have put many hours and miles in that truck and it originally comes from the Lindsay area. Does the dump work now. The hydraulic cylinder was shot when we got rid of it and we used the crane and a chain to dump it.:woot:

I recognized it by the box and the red GMC letters in the black grill. I painted them when we repainted the truck in the early 90's

[greg9504]

Dan, yes the dump works, it's a dual cylinder setup though so maybe not the same truck. 1982 GMC C70, 366 engine, 5 sp with 2 speed axle. I drove it 550 km round trip out to the quarry last Saturday. Belmont Rose near Havelock, which is relatively close to Lindsay. Ever used their stone? It's the granite in the picture. The guy who runs it, Chris Proud, seems really nice. They do a lot of quarrying for monument stone. The landscape stone sells for pretty cheap, $30 ton. He even keeps a pile of fountain stones that he's predrilled, those sell for only a bit more. He calls them "bubbling rock" :)

[dan deutekom]

Specs on that truck sound the same as ours was. Who knows if it is the same one but there couldn't be too many setup the same as that one around. Most of our work was North of Lindsay so we got our stone locally (nothing to farm but rock once you get 30 miles North) but I have heard of Chris Proud. I might have to go check out his rock because the price sounds good and I like the "bubbling rock" idea because it can save a lot of time.

Maybe I will get there when the Havelock Jamberee happens:cowboy:

[4seasons]

these are in Ft Collins , col.
don't know how they set them.
When we finally get to do our waterfall we have coming up I'll try to get crane pics.:const:

[Stonehenge]

Nice pics. Cool stone.