So.. my brand new wall fell over and now I have some rebuilding questions

[travs69]

To cut a very long story short.. I had a large retaining wall put up (roughly 175 feet long with 2 sections that are close to 7.5 ft tall) and the guys who put it up probably did just about everything wrong that you can do wrong. Improper base, not enough back fill, not compacting, no geo grid, pretty much a really horrible job. They did a few walls in the neighborhood and I liked their work. They bid the job and I had them start it while I was out of town. My first day back I fired them and two weeks after that the wall buckeled and fell. So I have read all the versa-lok documentation ( I am using the versa-lok square foot) and I have just a few questions.

Filter fabric. Should or shouldn't it be used. Versa-lok mentions it but says it is just for certain soil types. I had a few contractors bid the job and half said to use it half said it wasn't needed.

Drainage. I am assuming the proper drainage pipe to use is the hard peferated PVC pipe but I am not sure how to make it exit the wall. My wall is basically a U shape (but with hard corners not rounded).

Do I just use a half brick and make a hole to exit through or what? Do I go under the wall somehow?

I know I said in short at the begining.. but if you read this far.. thanks you for any help/advice you can give me.

Travis

[agla]

A seven and a half foot wall requires a structural engineer in most states (if not all). The structural engineer would have calculated and specified what type of geotextile to use and the drainage.

It is a safety hazard to have an improperly built wall as you found out. That is why the state requires that a structural engineer stamps the plans and they are built properly. If you reconstruct it without a structural and it falls on the neighbors kid (or a burgular, if you live in Massachusetts) then you are responsible for the injury or death.

You really should have this designed by a licensed professional.

[Paul]

If you read the documents published by Versa-lok then you should know that an engineer is needed to design the wall.

There is much more to building a wall than just stacking and filling units. I can't even tell you how to begin building a 7.5' high wall without knowing soil types, what kind of fill you brought in (from your other posts) or if the fenceing was installed.

[travs69]

Thanks,
Kinda weird though that not one of the hardscape guys I had out even mentioned bringing in a engineer. It's only 7.2 tall for about 5 feet at two corners maybe they didn't think there was enough to warrant it? The code/ordinance guys didn't mention it either.. of course he did mention the complete horrible job the guys did and that it would have to come down.

Travis

[Paul]

Not really, most building inspectors don't read the manuals on wall units and unless they have a few walls gone bad most counties don't know much about the limits of gravity walls. V-lok lists 39"as maximum height without engineering.

What do you ask your contractors as far as schooling? Most of the better ones have gone to NMCA classes and should have a certificate that they have completed the basic course in wall building. If they had they would have had a plan with a seal from a structural engineer on it and you shouldn't have had this problem. I know we have lots of threads here about high walls and double walls. Of course without testing of your soils and compaction of the soil between the grid a plus installing the grid the right way go a long way to increasing the stability of the wall. just installing the wrong soils behind the wall could have caused the failure, even grid installed to the right length but installed the wrong way could be a cause. Then theres having the right equipment not many wall installers have equipment that allow proper compaction over the grid( don't think that a small plate compactor ) can compact the material over the grid if soil moisture or soil composition is wrong. There is know way to tell from here because we don't have a soils report, or soil borings that could tell us if the soil the wall was built on was capable of supporting a wall that high. A double wall that totals 7.5' high should be considered as a single wall unless its at least twice the distance apart as it is high.and built on compacted soils. That means imported soils need to be compacted in 6" lifts with a sheep's footed roller to 95% proctor. and we all know not many wall installers have the equipment to test soil compaction!

[Dale Wiley]

Try using qualified contactors for subs or primary contactors.

Then educate yourself as to the codes, industry standards, and proper construction techniques.

Kinda weird though that not one of the hardscape guys I had out even mentioned bringing in a engineer.


:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

That would be your first clue that you MIGHT have a problem here.

You don't mention if you are the home owner, general, or landcape contractor here...but you really need to look at these project's before you execute them, or attempt to. These are the problems that the general public sees and then sets their expectations of ALL contracrtors when dealing with contractors.

By the way, who is paying for this rebuild ??

[travs69]

The guy I have coming out this weeks company builds all the walls for the road dept in this area so hopefully he will be a little more qualified. I am a homeowner. Right now I am paying for the rebuild. I might receive money back from the original contractor but it will have to go to court I'm sure. One of his statements (that made me laugh) was "The wall was in perfect condition and done properly before you fired me, you must have made some changes to it to cause it to fail". Most of the wall is 4 foot tall.. and he had no rock behind the wall.. I don't mean a little.. I mean he filled in with dirt.

[Stonehenge]

I'm no judge, but if you didn't allow him to finish it before you fired him, then it was an incomplete project.

Seems to me it'd be hard to sue successfully under those circumstances - I can think of many scenarios where partially complete projects would fail in a short time, even if they were being constructed properly.

Whatever the case, good luck with this situation.

[Lanelle]

Surely you are taking pictures of this situation. They will be necessary if you pursue the legal aspect of the problem.
You might also consider posting a picture here.

[Dale Wiley]

Don't know hwat state your in, but in Oregon, CA or the majority of the western states, you would be able to sue for any monies you paid,and what ever it cost to rebuild to industry standards.

Probably would not even have to sue, our Contractors Board would nail that guy's :censored: to the wall so hard, he wwould never be in business again.

[travs69]

I have a pictures. Most of the companys have came out.. looked at the orignal guys contract and said he basically cut ever corner he could and that they would give me a signed letter stating what was done vs what was stated. Basically I fired him before he could glue the caps on. Everything was done up to this point except a set of stairs, finish grading, and a large amount of cleanup.

[travs69]

Pic

[travs69]

Pic retry

[PSUscaper]

I'm speechless. I just can't imagine doing work like that. I would really, really like to know what price he gave you for that. Also, after this, you are having a 'guy who builds walls for road departments' come in.....Is this guy a qualified, insured company, or just a 'acquaintenance' coming in to help and work on the weekends.

I hate to say it, but 90% of work I see like this occured for one reason....the homeowner got a 'super' price on the project and hired them.

It just amazes me to see stuff like this STILL happen, as information and general wall building design is given out at even mega building supply stores.

Please, find a contractor who KNOWS what they are doing. Ask them for references and go see a job they have done. I can't imagine this guy built walls in the neighborhood and they looked good, and then came and did this.

[Paul]

A quick observation of the picture posted.

I do see gravel behind the wall and he has what looks like 6" behind it which is allowed with hollow wall blocks as long as the voids are filled in the wall, can't tell from this picture. I don't see any grid and I do see organic matter, tree roots and such. I don't see any compaction and from the type of soil I don't think it's compact-able (this is a guess I don't have a soils report).

Here's the outlook from what I can see.
No grid
No Engineering
Lucky no one was hurt!
No soil compaction

What I can't see
Why it failed other than poor soils (again a guess)
With out a picture of the base and the way the other walls are still standing I don't think his base was at fault.
Was the finished wall properly graded? Might not have been because he was removed from the job before completion.

Just a note most walls are lost when not finished or poor soils.

[travs69]

There is little to no rock.. what little rock you see is all there is.. one piece of geo-grid about 20 feet long and that is it. The base was put on 3/4 clean (not on ca6). They routed all my gutter drains behind the wall (not the one in the picture). There is no drainage pipe of any kind behind the wall. Nobody will touch the wall as is with it being set on the 3/4 clean.

The guy who is coming is a business. He came recommended from a few people in the area who pointed out to me some of his work. Trust me after the fist mistake I am questiong everyone pretty good (that's why I posted the original questions because I want to see what the contractors say vs what random people I have never met on the internet say :) )

They business that did the wall the first time has done a good number of walls in this area (none as large as mine). I went back (after learning about how walls are supposed to be done) and re-looked at the work. I have a feeling that it is just pure luck that none of them have fallen. Most of the walls are curved walls with (that I can see) no drainage, set on 3/4. None of them are much higher than 4-5 feet though. My neigher even said that on his wall (just at 5 feet tall) they used 2 layers of geogrid. So why they used one piece on a wall 7 feet tall on mine I have no clue.

Most of the contractors I have had out said that my wall should have 140+ tons of rock behind it (depending on the bid) and not including the base). I called the place that was delivering rock out here and they deliverd 30 tons total (including what was used in the base).

[Paul]

The base was put on 3/4 clean (not on ca6).

My NCMA book lists both types as allowed for base construction, remember this is not a footing, it is a flexible wall system.

What one contracor says after another contractors work fails is "I would have done this different"


NONE OF THAT COUNTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU NEED TO HAVE THE WALL ENGINEERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ckcland]

Travs69,

What area are you from???

[travs69]

St. Louis

[site]

You could sue the original contractor for "specific performance". That means you could force him to do everything he promised to do in his contract. If you had an engineer appear at the hearing you could probably get the wall built to engineer's standards. I imagine you probably don't want the guy anywhere near the job, but it might be your only recourse.

[Fine Edge]

I'm speechless but will say one thing... Listen to the replies on this site. I haven't found another site with the knowledge and professionalism that you will find here.

Good Luck.

[mark allen]

and the # 1 reason for wall failures

water

if the walls topside was not graded properly and diverted more water into the partially finished project then YES it will fail.... you don't say why you fired him, but eluded to alot of clean-up.. also what do the neghbors say...that had walls put up.... DO NOT TRY AND REBUILD THIS YOURSELF....this is what is said in every post before this one in one form or another...... Also be sure that all the pins were used....sometimes on curves the pins are harder to get in but the block still stacks easy.....
Take lots of pictures, you'll need them....
maybe your local boy scout troop is looking for some hard work and they could tear the rest of the wall down.
good luck
and be sure that the water is diverted from the top of the wall next time.

[mark allen]

and the geo-grid is probably installed wrong if it is 20 long.

[HardDaysKnight]

I'm Confused a bit here.
You asked this question:I am assuming the proper drainage pipe to use is the hard peferated PVC pipe but I am not sure how to make it exit the wall. My wall is basically a U shape (but with hard corners not rounded).

You are not sure how to make the drainage pipe exit the wall?
Are you re-building?


Do I just use a half brick and make a hole to exit through or what? Do I go under the wall somehow?
You. or a qualified installer.
For some reason, I get the impression after reading this
whole thread that you are going to try to re-build this
yourself or You built it to begin with. If not, Be sure to hire
qualified installers and not take the best price.
Best of luck, Johnny