Has anybody ever done this?

[jwholden]

I did a small patio last week and tried using pipes and a screed board to "level" the base (it actually pitches 3" away from the house). I built the base up by eye until a little below the grade for the base and then set and leveled the pipes in the base. Used a straight 2 x4 to screed and done. I didn't have to go back and fill any low spots and the final product came out awsome!

Not sure if this is the best idea for sidewalks but man I could go to town on a large patio.

:woot:

[Chuck Sinclair]

Yep, been doing it for a while now we use PVC pipes

[Stonehenge]

We don't use PVC - too flexible. But yes, I was taught that method back in 1987, and have been doing it that way (with some improvements over time) ever since.

You should go through a few iterations of screeding and compacting that stone, then the final screed is uncompacted until it's time to compact the pavers.

groovy man!!

[diginahole]

After nearly 20 years laying pavers I bought my first pipes this year. Must be the stubborn Dutch in me, it sure is easy with pipes. I have my eye out for a nice magneseum screed board now. I expect to land a 4500 sq ft driveway this week, the pipes will sure help on that one.

[Stonehenge]

Oh, now it's 'expect to land'? Good for you. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. :)

We've got 2 Magnesium screeds - just got them this year. 8' and 10'. In fact I just set them up with a screed board kit - those two, please a group of wood screeds that are 3',4',5' & 6' (hole drilled through the middle of the wood ones, with a rope tying them all together to make them easy to carry).

The Magnesium screed baords were $10/foot, if I recall. But very nice to have.

[diginahole]

yep, I deliver samples tommorow and should sign it up on Wednesday, but I won't count the chickens 'til they cluck.

Did you get the Mag screeds at a tool supply or metal shop?

[Stonehenge]

Got 'em at one of my paver suppliers. They also carry all kinds of masonry tools, of which I guess this is one.

This place tried to be a one stop shop - Partner saws, Dimas blades, Bomag compaction equipment, Unilock pavers, all kinds of bagged materials, and some of the basics for bulk hardscape materials.

[diginahole]

What are the dimentions? I think I'd like 'em about 3/4 x 5".

[Stonehenge]

Think of the nominal 2"x4" That's about what these are.

I think it's called nominal....an actual 2"x4", not a 1 5/8" x 3 5/8"

[diginahole]

FYI... Nominal lumber is the finished stuff so a nominal 2x4 is actually 1 1/2 x 3 1/2. Rough sawn lumber is 2" x 4". But i got the jist thanks.

[Stonehenge]

Ok. I might edit my previous post for content. :wacko: :biglaugh:

[jwholden]

Ok Stonehenge, you got me thinking now.

On my next walk job I'm going to use my metal screed pipe on the final layer of base to get a nice level surface. Then use the 1" PVC I normally use for the sand to lay an inch of the uncompacted 3/4" process on top and use that as my "bedding sand". I'm curious how this will work and eager to see if I just saved myself a trip to the supplier for sand! Less time + Less material = More $$
:rrr:

[Stonehenge]

Using our method you should only be setting pipe one time per project, and screeding and compacting 3-4 times after setting the pipe. You should be able to bounce a golf ball off of your base when done.

[jwholden]

When you say screed do you mean run a board on top of the pipes to level the base or just add and spread more base?

[Stonehenge]

Running the board across the pipes.

Spread stone at the top of the patio and screed it with the board over pipe. Compact it.

Spread stone at the top of the patio and screed it with the board over pipe. Compact it.

Spread stone at the top of the patio and screed it with the board over pipe. Compact it.

Pull pipe, fill in pipe lines and compact. Smooth pipe lines with trowel or 2' level.

Lay pavers.

[Stonehenge]

Of course, before you do that, you should have filled up the excavation in 2-3" lifts of crushed stone, compacted thoroughly, before the pipe are even set.

[jwholden]

Ok, so I fill the trench in 2-3" lifts until I get close to my final level. Set my pipes and screed with the board. Then I compact the whole mess (I would assume it's best NOT to run the wacker over the pipes). I repeat this process 2 more times and then remove my pipes and fill my pipe lines and compact again. Then I actually set the pavers on compacted base? No fluff at all. Hmm...

[Stonehenge]

I like to follow that process 3-4 times, not 2. But yes, pavers right over that base.

And yes, compactor on pipe is bad. Either lift it over as it runs, or drive it our of one section into the next (lifting a Wacker 1550 over pipe is not as hard as it sounds).

[diginahole]

Originally posted by jwholden
Ok Stonehenge, you got me thinking now.

On my next walk job I'm going to use my metal screed pipe on the final layer of base to get a nice level surface. Then use the 1" PVC I normally use for the sand to lay an inch of the uncompacted 3/4" process on top and use that as my "bedding sand". I'm curious how this will work and eager to see if I just saved myself a trip to the supplier for sand! Less time + Less material = More $$
:rrr:

I just re-read this thread and I think either jw or I have misunderstood something. 3/4 process could not possibly be used to replace bedding sand. I just don't think you could flatten 3/4" material to the required tolerance to lay pavers without some of them rocking.

3/4 is for base construction, then screed sand (or screenings... YAK) on top of that for your laying surface. Compacting the bedding layer is optional. There are situations when I compact the bedding sand before laying pavers but for the most part this step is not necessary. I only compact bedding sand when it is desirable to walk on the sand before laying pavers. After tamping I re-screed without pipes, just the long straight edge.

If I understand correctly, Stonehenge just uses screenings for base and bedding in pedestrian traffic situations and 3/4 minus with screenings as a leveling layer (can't really call it a bedding layer if it's fully compacted) for vehicular traffic.

I can't endorse the screenings only method, hopefully the current testing being conducted will change Jeff's mind too. We will just have to wait and see.;)

[Stonehenge]

Digin -

Thanks for the catch - you're dead on. For pedestrian traffic we use all screenings, not 3/4-. I missed that the first time around.

Yeah, we need to start doing some actual load tests for the test pavement.

I'll take some measurements tomorrow and post them with regard to paver settling during compaction of joint sand. As expected the 2 pavements with crushed stone and 1" of sand settled more - eyeballing it I'd say about 1/8"-3/16" more than the screenings.

[Paul]

Settled or compacted?

[diginahole]

Oh, by the way I signed that 4500 sq ft driveway yesterday. We start digging for the new base on Wednesday.

[Stonehenge]

Paul - compacted, not settled. Sorry, I know that's a blasphemous word to hardscapers...

Maybe 'bedded' is a better term.

Digin - CONGRATS!!! :woot: Make sure to get yourself a :cigar:. There are 2 votes for a Punch cigar here, so they're probably a good bet.

[diginahole]

I may just take you up on that. I've never tried the big stogies before. So far Colts have been my once a year treat.

I'm buying dinner at the best restaraunt in town for the clients that gave me the referal for this one. They did a lot more selling on this one than I did. :)

[jwholden]

Darn, there goes another good idea.

OK, to keep the info flowing.

Do "the seasoned vets" use the metal screed pipes when building residential walkways or use the stake, eyeball, and a lot of staring method?

[diginahole]

This seasoned vet uses an eyeball for the first lift of base. Stakes and strings for the final lift of base and as of this year pipes for the bedding. I used to use strings for the bedding as well but have found that pipes although not much if any faster are easier to train others how to prepare bedding sand.

[Paul]

It all depends, How wide the walkway is, how long it is and which way the lot drains in relation to the walkway.

I know most here don't want to invest in a slope laser, much less a dual slope laser but we have found it great to install pavers. We just set the pitch (both ways) and just listen for the tone. On larger jobs a laser grade box makes setting the base a snap. "Digin" here has a driveway going in (4500 sq ft) that could be graded in as little as two hrs along with compacted with a skid mounted plate in another 2 hrs. The only hand work would be the edges.

Until we invested in the grader box and laser this would have taken 3 men the better part of two days, now it takes 3 men less than a day.

[diginahole]

I expect it to take me 3.5 days to excavate and install the base for this. Remember my Bobcat 553 is only 4' wide.

A single slope laser would work fine on this driveway, it is level across both ends. Just how do they work though? I can't imagine how a rotating lazer could do it and a single straight beam wouldn't be of much help across 25' of driveway.

[Paul]

Think of it as a flat plate, now tilt it slightly, then image it extended over your job site, any place you would hold the receiver it would be at that angle. You could set it up in the garage with it facing the street shoot your edge of the concrete then the edge of the curb or street this will give you the pitch, then adjust the slope down the amount needed. now subtract the depth of your brick, sand and second lift and leave it. This will allow you to grade the first lift out , add in the second lift when the first is in and repeat. any place you need to check your height all you have to do in place the stick on it. With the laser box we would grade the stone out (first lift) then switch to the plate, a couple of passes and back to the box ( no need for the bucket) and repeat. At any time the operator can over ride the system, like when pushing a big pile or cutting along the curb.

[PSUscaper]

Hey paul...

regarding the box blade.

I assume you mean a tractor mounted blade???

I've been seeing more and more of these new grader blades for the front of skidsteers.......they look like one of those long nosed road graders with the blade under the frame.

Wondering if you have any experience with these yet???

Looks like it might out perfore a grader box in the sense that you get a longer travel base (=smoother grade) and also have the ability to hydaulically pitch it a little bit to get a desire slope from (like the six way on a bull doser)

I'm thinking one of these on my 864 would be a efficient way to approach lareger areas.

steve

[Paul]

No this is a skid steer mounted box blade that is capable of switching between a tractor or skidsteer. It has two cutting edges to cut forward or back. I don't worry about the longer wheel base effect, it adjusts automatically following the laser beam.

Try here http://www.laserleveling.com/