Client wants mortar, part 2

[Stonehenge]

I had a meeting with a builder today - they have several model homes where they are trying to showcase their creativity, which for us includes the use of pavers and concrete.

Each home has a different layout where there is poured concrete drive, walk and patio, with 'shelves' or recessed areas where pavers are to be mortared in.

But what they want concerns me - they want there to be joints of mortar. Each project has several small sections, totalling about 500 sqft per home. I'm concerned about the time it'd take to lay something like this, not to mention the structural integrity (most all of the recessed concrete areas already have small cracks forming in them).

So I'm wondering - (Paul, BJR, Tim) - would it be feasible to just mortar the bottoms of the soldier course, then just add coarse sand as a bedding for the body of the paver area, with polymeric sand between the joints (to prevent water seeping in)?

I'm interested in finding a way to make this project a little more installer friendly. Plus we just don't have the resources to do several of these projects mortaring everything (in fact, one of the honchos of this outfit wanted the first mason (who they fired) to butter all sides before installing, and not use a bag to fill in the joints).

Once I get some opinions on this there's a mind-blowing project that's part of one of these homes that I'll share with everyone and get some opinions....

The pic below is a small section of one of the homes.


This discussion has been included in the site beginner's brick paving (http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/pavers/brick-pavers.htm) page.

[Lanelle]

Even tho' my name isn't listed, may I post an answer?

[Rex Mann]

Jeff,

Basically you are doing an overlay. Put a little bedding sand down to achieve the proper elevation. Then use something like Paver Bond adhesive on the soldier course. I would then use sand lok, polymeric sand or seal the whole deal with Surebond.

Peace,

Rex

[Stonehenge]

Lanelle, of course.

Rex, we'll have to elevate the soldier course 5/8" to meet the surrounding concrete - I don't think Paver Bond will do that for us. That's why I'm thinking the mortar for soldier course is a necessary evil. Unless there's something I'm not thinking of.

[Rex Mann]

Mortar under the soldier will work perfectly. How thick is the concrete under where your pavers are going?

As you know, the final elevation of the pavers mirrors what ever the concrete ends up doing. Somehow I'd make sure the builders know that.

As for the mortar, show them an ICPI Tech.


ICPI TECH SPECS ALL OF THEM (http://www.icpi.org/public/articles/details.html?id=81)

Peace,

Rex

[Lanelle]

Pavers on concrete with a sand bed is a common spec here for commercial/public sites. Mortar or glue will work depending on the thickness you need.

[Stonehenge]

The concrete under the pavers is 3-4" thick.

Speaking of which, there are already cracks in that concrete, which I imagine will grow large enough for sand to escape. What's a recommended course of action there? Geotextile under the sand?

[Rex Mann]

Use a geo-textile under your sand and you'll be all set.

Peace,

Rex

[Stonehenge]

Ok, here's the mind blowing part. First, take a look at the drawing below to get a sense for what they want.

The idea is, the upper pond feeds water into the paver area. The water runs between the joints of the pavers, but not over the tops of the pavers, so that someone can walk right over the pavers and not get their shoes wet. The water then spills into the pond below, where the water is recirculated. The pavers would have spaces like mortar joints, but would not be mortared between them. But they would be mortared to the concrete that they sat on.

When talking to one of the reps for the builder, they said they never tried something exactly like this, and had problems with water flowing the right amount - either it went all over the surface of the pavers, or it barely trickled.

I had my mason look at it, and he said the same thing I told the builder - the first freeze, half the pavers pop off. (when out of earshot of the boss, several of the builder's people agreed).

There's also a problem with the thin brick mortared to the face of the footing, but I think I have a solution to that.

So on this I'd love to hear all opinions (other than the obvious - run like heck!). Would some sort of trench grate system be better suited for this? Maybe three trenches where water would spill over. Or some way to make this other idea work?

[Paul]

I wonder if you could find a 7cm paver that would fit without the sand? If not I would use mortar but just to raise the area for a adhesive. My reason is there is no edge restraint on the picture, plus working with a hard adhesive (epoxy) would give you a better edge lock.

[Paul]

I posted before you included the last picture, but I would still do it my way, larger joints would be needed, and a better way of bonding the mortar would need to be figured out.

[Lanelle]

Another problem that I see is that the water may just run down the 'face' into the lower pond. The water needs to be projected out over the wall so that it drops into the pond.

[Stonehenge]

For the other portions of this project (the non-pond ones), the concrete shelf for the pavers had varied depth, so 7cm pavers would work in some areas, not in others. Do you not like the soldier course in mortar but sand in middle idea? That way would seem to give us an enclosure where the sand would not migrate out, and make installing inside pretty easy.

[Stonehenge]

As for the pond, I think I'm liking the trench grate idea more and more. I'd creat a modified version of the trench pictured below. Just with a wider trench and grate.

[Stonehenge]

Lanelle - good point - with flow just between those narrow joints, all kinds of tiny imperfections in the pavers will slow the water down to a trickle before it exits. The trench grate seems to solve that - you can get some nice flow through that.

[Paul]

I think with the thickness varing so much your better off to make it all one thickness, you can even get away without a sand base if done right, just using sand to fill the "gaps" and glue down the edges.

[Stonehenge]

BTW - anyone know of a good source for trench grates other than Iron Smith in California? I think they'd need to be metal (not plastic).

Also - ADA specs no slot/grate openings wider than 1/2".

[Stonehenge]

But we'd still need to get 3" of rise - a 7cm paver still leaves .25" at some parts of the project (and who knows if they'd even go for a 7cm paver - they want a different paver for each home).

Paul - You sound like you like the idea of creating a new mortar bed to lay the pavers on. Are you worried about the sand with poly sand on top failing? Water getting in and freezing/cracking?

[Paul]

look at NDS for what you need if you go that way

[Paul]

No I would seal the mortar with epoxy

[Stonehenge]

Seal which mortar? A thin bed over the whole area, or the soldier course idea?

[Paul]

install a coat before installing the pavers to bring it to grade. then use epoxy to seal the mortar, and on the pond idea I would use epoxy to attach the pavers

[Stonehenge]

I'm worried about anything being able to hold those pavers in place after they've had 2 months to soak up water.

[Paul]

you would need a crow bar and wrecking ball to move them, I've use it in rivers to hold stone.

[Lanelle]

Another thought would be to use larger plaza size pavers, at least 12 x 12 thus allowing for larger spaces between them. For residential water features it is common to place pieces of flagstone on cinderblocks in water features as a stepping stone path across it.

[Stonehenge]

You bring up an idea that flashed through my mind yesterday - cut notches on the bottom of some pavers to allow better flow-through. But I think the 1/2" gap on top is as big as I'll be able to get, without the potential for high heels getting stuck.

Paul - for the mortar bed then epoxied pavers in the pond idea - would you be worried about the mortar bed popping loose from the poured concrete below, with absorption and all?

Is there a way I can prevent some absorption by applying a water sealer? If so, would that water sealer reduce the holding strength of the epoxy?

[Stonehenge]

Another Q about the inlet of water - there will be EPDM liner used - I'm thinking the liner should extend into the paver area a bit to reduce the chance for leaks. Should it go between the concrete and mortar bed, or on top of the mortar, sandwiched between the pavers and the mortar, held with epoxy?

[Paul]

Why apply a sealer under the epoxy top coat? they have many different types of epoxy some are used as a sealer , it will keep the mortar from adsorbing water plus give you the bite you need to afix the paver to it.

[Stonehenge]

Oh - the epoxy would be applied across the whole area, not paver by paver? Ok, I got that.

What about the liner and the water inlet? Extend the liner into the paved area?

[Paul]

you could

[Stonehenge]

I think I'd have to, otherwise the seam where the pavers and line meet would be leak city. The concrete is already poured, so there's no way to have the liner run over the footing but under the slab atop it.

I think this element will be a "Here's how we want to do it, and we want the whole pond project, otherwise we don't touch it." (They said they already have someone for the scape part of things :rrr: )

[diginahole]

My first thought is to have the water flow under the pavers rather than through. Maybe you could set the pavers on pedestals like these (http://www.hanoverpavers.com/html/guardian.html)

[dan deutekom]

I love the concept. This would look cool

Would it be possible to install hidden piping to feed the water fall properly? Then the pavers could have a slow flow of water between them that isn't feeding the falls, only giving the appearance of doing so.

[Stonehenge]

Good ideas. :D

We only have 3" of rise to work with, so that will limit our options.

[Rex Mann]

ICPI Tech Spec #14 deals with some of the issues you are facing. It details doing roof plazas using pedestals and the like.

Peace,

Rex

BTW: the ICPI link is at the beginning of this thread.

[diginahole]

If I understand correctly there are pedestals as thin as 5/8". That and a 60mm paver equals 3".

I personally don't have any experience with them but I'm thinking it would make a much nicer waterfall than weaving the water through (and likely over) the pavers. At least you could have a chance at producing a sheet of water rather than numerous trickles. I think it would be nice to find a way to pool the water beteeen the pavers and the waterfall so you could get a continuous sheet to fall.

[Stonehenge]

I didn't realize they made them that thin - I saw the site and the graphic and figured it had to be several inches in size. I do like the idea of a sheet of water, or at least something more than a trickle. I'm also liking the idea of 3 trench grates, so 3 narrow sheets of water can spill in.

[Tim]

Sorry for coming in so late on this question. This type of project looks like Call Back City to me! :snorkel: One thing that red flags it to me is the fact that you will be preforming your services over an already weakened surface which is likely to be over sub par compaction. It's extremely common for concrete adjacent to new buildings like this, to fail within 2-5 yrs or even sooner due to it's sub-grade settling creating voids. Contactors just try to fill the over-digs for the foundation/basements too fast, in too large of lifts without compacting enough inbetween. Extremely common!Knowing where you are located, the freeze factor will really test any type of surface bonding you use. The location of that down spout isn't going to be your friend either. Though I really can't state the best route to take on applying your pavers, I would suggest to try and eliminate any possibility of water freezing in, under, or around them. Expantion joint materials I rank for this, or any application are in this order 1 :D Zip-strip with the strip pulled, and SL-1 sealer or soft seal caulked in over it; 2 :) Seramar expantion joint glued in place with 3M aresol adhesive, then also sealed with the same, and 3 :, Creasol soaked board as a last alternative. You may want to spray the entire installation with either TK bight, or Mystic(blue can) sealer when it is all said and done. It will help concerning the water, not to mention make your work shine. Sorry I can't help further, but PYA on this one StoneHenge. Tim

[Stonehenge]

You know Tim, I never gave much thought to the expansion joint. Do you find that the expansion joint is a place where a good deal of moisture enters?

Most of the stuff you list here is foreign to me. There are a few concrete places here - I'll give them a jingle.

[Tim]

Definately! If expansion joints are not sealed like I suggested, water penatrates very quickly, and once the water gets under your work, it usually will stay there untill it creates problems by freezing. SL-1 sealer is what yoou see saw joints in parking lots & streets sealed with sometimes. It's finnished color is grey. Soft seal is the other, black sealer that you would see on streets. Both are messy to work with, & once it touches something, it's on ther for good! Zip - strip is black foam type expansion joint with a perferation 1" down from it's top that you pull off the next day. This creates a nice, recessed void(makes it easier to stay neat with the sealer too) that will not be subject to foot or vehicle traffic. It makes a nice "in a pinch"knee pad too. Seramar is also a foam type joint, but is gray, and thinner. It really will mold itself around irregularities if needed. Creasol board is the black expansion joint you always see deteriorating in side walk joints. Hope that helps. Tim

[Stonehenge]

Looks like we've landed at least 2 of the 5 projects, possibly more. I told them that we would be interested in doing 1 in all mortar, but no more than that, because I couldn't commit the resources it'd take to do more than that, in the tight time frame they have. But I bid others using just mortar on the soldier course. Looks like we'll land at least one of those, maybe more.

I think they want to wait and see how those turn out before they commit to the one with the pond.... I told them that I won't do anymore research on that one until they come to me with some genuine interest.

[Stonehenge]

Well, they're showing some interest in the pond. We'll have PO's for 2 paver projects, and depending on how those go, we'll get more. But they want to hear about my ideas ( well, sort of 'my ideas' :rolleyes: ) about how to approach the pond.

I reiterated that we either want the whole pond or none of it.

They're hoping for me to email over my thoughts and some rough costs in the next day or so. :D If we could pull it off, it'd really be a nifty project for the portfolio. I just don't want it to be one where I avoid the nieghborhood altogether, because I don't want to see what's become of it...

[Stonehenge]

Holy paperwork, Batman. I just got 19 pages of faxed stuff from this home builder that I am presuming I must read and sign.

Are there red flag contract terms I should watch out for?

[Lanelle]

Check the Retainage terms and your right to place a Lien on the properties. Home builders are not the most trustworthy lot. Some are good but others are otherwise.

[Paul]

Only 19 pages must be using the short form :)

[Stonehenge]

Had a chance to look over that paperwork - they changed the pattern on me quite significantly. Different color patterns, more cutting involved. As I haven't signed off on any of their paperwork, I sent them an email saying we'd be happy to make these changes - just give me a minute to adjust my bid. :)

[Stonehenge]

We got our first few hours of work in on the mortar set project. I'll post a couple pics tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to seeing what my mason can do. I kinda think he's looking forward to showing me, too.

The builder decided to go with a company from Milwaukee that first tried to do the waterfall thing for them before. Just as well - things are getting hairy enough with this project.

[Stonehenge]

Didn't take any pics yet....Got to meet the masons working on two neighboring houses. Great guys, and actually gave me a few pointers after my mason left (I wanted to learn, so I had our helper stick around and I jumped in to do the mortar work).

But in talking to them, I realized I'm not charging enough $$. The contractor is paying for the brick. We're paying for the mortar, sand, and mixer rental, and based on the man-hour estimate I got from my mason, priced it out at about $6.50 per sqft. The mason I spoke with about price said he wouldn't touch these projects for less than $10. D'oh!! :doh: Now I know why they want us to do a bunch of them.... :rrr:

We'll still make money on the deal, but it kills me to know we left a bunch on the table. Well, at least we're learning on a smaller project, and not a 1/2 acre one!

[Stonehenge]

One of the other things the masons told me - they saw the company that was working before us (the ones that got fired). They told me that they didn't even have trowels. The just had one of those notched tile trowel things, and the female foreman wassticking her fingers in the mud under the pavers to get them up more than they were.

No chalk lines or string lines, and in 6' of run they were 5" out of square. I only saw a portion of their work, and it was not very good by my inexperienced eyes. This same company also does some questionable work with dry-laid pavers, lawn grading and seeding/sodding. But they have a big outfit and keep kicking out the work. Must have great salespeople.

[Tim]

How true that old saying really is: If you think the price of knowledge is expensive, you should consider the price of ignorance! Those words have been a bad penny to me. Always coming back. Maybe you can still negotiate the price for the other sites to increase your PM's, or is the contract iron clad? At worst, you will still see a profit for you efforts, and learn a lesson well. ;) Tim

[Stonehenge]

Here's a pic of our work thus far:

[Stonehenge]

Here's another:

[Stonehenge]

They opted to go with the masons that worked on the first pond feature like the one I discussed here. Here's their work on that project so far:

[Stonehenge]

Here's the pond part - Paul, it looks like they're trying something like what you suggested - They're using Glen Gery sand molded pavers throughout, except at the waterfall area, where they're using Unilock's Stonehenge pavers, Prairie color. Sounds like they'll try to use something in an adhesive, though they want to place an EPDM liner over the entire concrete area, so I'm not sure the adhesive will bond to that, and more importantly the pavers will stay in one place over time.

[Stonehenge]

I need some help with this project...It is going slow as molasses running uphill in January. My mason hasn't really tackled stuff like this, and I think he's spending too much time setting each brick.

Would anyone recommend screeding off sections of mortar and laying a bunch of pavers, again and again, and then bagging the whole lot?

I'm going to commit all my peops (5) to getting this darn project done tomorrow, and want to make it as fast as I can.

For example, I want to use a string for one or two courses, but then I want to use a 1/2" board as a guide for straightness, instead of a string for every course. And, I want to be able to level more than one brick at a time. I'm thinking I lay a bed, set the pavers and tap on them with a 2x4 using the mortared soldier courses on either side as a guide.

Also, is there anything faster than bagging the joints? Jeez, that and the round iron afterward takes forever.

[Stonehenge]

My solution was to throw bodies at it. Everyone stayed busy and we just about wrapped it up. A few more hours for 2 guys and it'll be complete. Then on to the next one....

A funny side note - yesterday a competitor showed up on the job site, said "Hi - we're here to start the brick work today. Which houses are you guys doing?" My guys replied - "All of the houses that are left." I guess the guy went into some kind of explanation of being out of town for a few days, filled out all the paperwork, yadda yadda. But we've got PO's for 4 projects, so I believe we're in the clear.

So, those guys hopped back into their truck and left. :)

[Stonehenge]

I think I'm getting a sense of what it's like to really work for a builder....

I get a call today -

Them: "We're concerned that the projects aren't getting completed fast enough."

Me: "We just completed a mortar set project this morning. The 2 sand set projects will go much quicker. Also, we just got PO's on the other 3 about 4 days ago. Also, I had mentioned I would have trouble getting 2 mortar set projects completed, because I would have trouble committing our resources for that amount of time."

Them: "We were thinking about taking one of the projects off your hands and find someone else to do it."

Me: "That sounds good. The 2nd mortar set project will be the biggest drain on our resources. If you want to speed things along, take away that one."

Them: "Ok, that's the one we'll take. But we might still have you do it. Also, model home X must be a priority for you to get done, because that's where our temporary office will be. That one has to get done next."

Me: "Ok, do you have the pavers chosen and delivered for that project?"

Them: "No, but we hope to have the materials on site sometime tomorrow."

Me: "Ok, then I think we'll have to work on the house that has the materials on site."


And while I was on site, the construction mgr for these model homes tells me - "You have to get model Y done ASAP, like work 24/7 to get it done." ?!?!?!?!? I get the sense that everyone is not playing from the same play book.

Is this normal?

Let's hope they all work from the same check book.

[Paul]

Sure is........... Welcome to Construction 101

First rule is never comit to having people on site without material, which seems to be working for you! don't let the construction mgr run the project for you, remind him you need the brick to do the job! Oh the 24/7 is normal for them, they think that unless they tell you that , they arn't doing their job. One note here doucument that they don't have material on the job, so if your crews leave for another job you have it in writting that THEY are the ones not keeping up with their contract/PO.

[jwholden]

I worked for a builder who was building two new houses, ONCE. Everything you hear about builders is true. He got my price and said go ahead and then told me he found someone else who could do it for less. I decided to meet him half way because I wanted the job (five years ago).

When we got to the job he would ask us to do little stupid extras that had absolutely nothing to do with what we were there for (new lawn install). Finally, when we got to the back yard and needed more soil to put in a decent lawn he said to just go thin with the soil. Final thing, when the port-o-let guy screwed up the fresh asphalt on a 90 degree day he came looking for the landscaper first.

I can say that he did get me the money as soon as I completed my part of the project and did call me back for other work, unfortunately I was too busy....

[Stonehenge]

Here's a pic of the completed work:

[Stonehenge]

By the way - food for thought if others want to try this: there is a thing called a point drill or grout drill, that has rubber seals and a hopper - you can load the thing full of mud and shoot the joints, instead of bagging them. I learned this tip about 48 hours too late.... :rrr:

[jwholden]

That came out awsome!!

Go hit the Humidor:cigar:

[Stonehenge]

I do believe that you've read my mind.... :cigar:

And thanks for the kind words. :D

[Stonehenge]

This is beginning to turn into a 3-ring circus....

On page 4 of this thread I mentioned the builder wanting to take one project away, so that it could get done more timely. Well, here's the real story....

Another company thought they were supposed to be doing most of the projects - when they saw we were doing them, this competitor had his wife call and holler at the builder. It was this that prompted them to take 1 project away to give to them.

After being awarded this other project, this competitor was told he had to do it at my price (which I mentioned, for all mortar work, was a bit low). So after a week of playing phone tag, he verifies with me the price, and decide to call the builder and tell them 'Sorry - we can't do that project for you.'

So the next day one of the builder's construction managers comes to me and asks - 'You want the project back?' I say - I'm going to have to check my schedule, but I don't think I'll have the time now.

My plan was to accept the project a 2nd time but raise the price. However, the owner (builder) showed up at another of our sites and said - 'I don't like the color choice - Can you remove all the dark colored brick and replace them with light ones?' I said 'Pretty unlikely. We just installed 850 sqft (1/3 was dark) of these pavers, spec'd by one of your staff.'

Sounds like they're going to live with the color choice, but it ticked me off enough that I think we'll pass on that last project, unless they really loosen up the check book and ask extremely nicely.

I can't comprehend how this builder can build so many homes - everything seems so unorganized.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

I'm constantly amazed that even when I think I've 'grown up' as a contractor stupid BS still finds its way to me.

Do you think they will use the light colored brick as an excuse not to pay you because you didn't jump through the hoop for the builder? After all he's a BUILDER (moment of silence out of respect please).

I only worked for a builder once, but it sounds like you may not have the right business model to work for these guys.

[Stonehenge]

I don't think they'll hold back on payment. Then again, if they do, it can be returned to the state it was in prior to our arrival in about 5 minutes.

I am interested in wading my way through some of this stuff, because I know I ultimately want to be involved in larger scale work, which will mean knowing how to navigate some of these new waters.

And I'll learn what to do, and how to price these projects, differently than how I approach residential work. Just need to do it on a shorter learning curve.

[Paul]

In an earlier post you said that they had picked out the brick and arranged for delivery. Now that sounds like the color choice is their problem (as long as you have color choice in your contract) I would have ask at that point if they wanted a quote for the removal and replacement.

[Stonehenge]

Good thinking. :) I was only thinking about the sound a 2x4 was going to make against the builder's head....

One thing I didn't do that may bite me later is to not have hard copy documentation of everything. They chose the pattern and the colors, but the pattern and colors were not written anywhere.

That slip-up will not happen twice.

[Stonehenge]

Here's an update: We're wrapping up the last two of three projects for this builder. They love our work. They want us to take back this last project. I got emailed and called and paged all over the place today.

So I sent a fax, with a new bid. Told them we'd be happy to, but we can't finish it until X, and it's going to cost you Y more dollars, because I'll have to pay overtime for my guys to get this thing done, along with all the other stuff we have going. "If the deadline or the $$ don't work for you, we won't be able to do this project for you."

I gave them 48 hours to send an updated PO.

[jwholden]

You the man!

[Stonehenge]

I don't know about that, but thanks for the compliment. :blush:

I just want to cover my behind, and not do another project where we make next to nothing for the mere pleasure of doing the work.

I was talking to a cute faux finishing sub today - I asked for her advice in dealing with this builder in general. She said "Get it in writing." So that's what I'm doing. :D

[jwholden]

Any pictures?

[Stonehenge]

Not of the other two. I'll take some in the next day or so. I'm really happy with how one came out. With the almost woodgrain look of Pine Hall English Edge pavers, with the 2 color blends chosen, one of the projects has a very earthen, woody kind of feel to it. I can't take credit for the color choices, but really like 'em. :D

[jwholden]

I was talking to a cute faux finishing sub today - I asked for her advice in dealing with this builder in general. She said "Get it in writing." So that's what I'm doing.

The sub, the sub!

[Stonehenge]

Here are a few pics of one of the other projects...

[Stonehenge]

another...

[Stonehenge]

last one...

[Stonehenge]

I stopped over to the houses we did for that builder, just to see how the landscaping was progressing (that was being done by a company near Milwaukee).

At first, I was a bit freaked out and ticked when I saw that they were making 90 degree turns on our pavers. But then I saw they were holding up beautifully to the abuse. :)

[Stonehenge]

Here's the almost completed pond that the builder had another company do.

I suspect they will have problems aplenty with it.

They used PL400 to adhere the pavers to the concrete. The adhesive is good, just not the right one for that job. I like using PL's Construction Adhesive, but even that is likely not the right one for this job, where water will be coursing between the pavers. There are many pavers that have already come loose, after only a day or two.

As you can see, they used Unilock Stonehenge pavers.

The liner at the top end of the pond just lays about 4" onto the sidewalk, and is glued to the concrete. There are a few places where the liner is not flat to the concrete; water will most certainly get underneath the liner on that side.

For the waterfall side, the liner runs up the concrete footing and is glued to the under side of the concrete sidewalk. There is separation between the liner and the concrete there, as well.

I'm glad we didn't do this one.....

[Stonehenge]

Thew waterfall also looks like it suffers from a case of Volcanus Eruptitis...

[jwholden]

Hey,

That looks like an aquascapes pond system.

[Stonehenge]

It is. They used aquascapes for the pond at every model home (yeah - a pond at every model home!!)

But they made their own spill (Weir?) stone, out of a piece of bluestone.

[Stonehenge]

I saw Tim post in the experience area and it made me want to post a pic of a project we're currently working on. I have to say it's one of the more complex patios we've ever installed, with clay paver, Arizona flagstone, some dryliad, other parts mortared to footings. Lights are being mortared into the patio steps and planter area.

Here's the progress so far:

[Stonehenge]

I am so darned excited about this project I have to post another pic. This is the progress through today. The masonry work is going slow, but I am always amazed at how mortar can make small imperfections vanish.

This will be the coolest patio we've done in a few years, if not ever. :D :D :D

[diginahole]

Coming along nicely. :)

[jwholden]

Did your forman's jaw drop when you gave him the design for that one? Looks like a fun challenge!

[Stonehenge]

I think he was more than a little nervous - there were elements to this patio he's never done. So I have been on site for a good deal of this one (I kinda wanted to be. ;) )

Here's a copy of the patio portion of the plan, so the pic makes a little more sense:

[Terry D]

We do stuff like this all the time in CA, but the brick pavers are much nicer (kiln fired clay) high end stuff. I'm not sure of your frostline concerns but out here we don't have to worry about those issues. To ensure an even flow of water at the weir, make sure the face is pretty level so that the water has a chance to fill all the wareas and come of somewhat evenly.

A mortar bed is the quickest and best way to get a strong set. There are tons of admixtures that you caould put into the mortar to help it withstand the water and keep its strenght.

Sounds like a fun way to show off your work, too bad the brick wasn't higher end stuff, (at least in the photo they look like concrete pavers). A McNear or Endicott brick would SCREAM quality at a slightly higher cost.

[BRL]

Well I'm getting to this a few days later. Any new pics since these??? That is one cool project!

Based on the post about this in the other thread I have a question. Are there any expansion joints in the concrete base?

[Stonehenge]

There is no expansion joint (except along the house), but I will likely make a couple relief cuts in the long slab.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

Do you have any shots of how you went about pouring your footing. I know it's basic stuff for the concrete lifers, but I'd be curious.

[Stonehenge]

Sorry, JW - no pics of pouring the footing. When the concrete truck pulls up, we all start hoppin'. Not much to it, though. At least for getting a rough finish. There are a few tricks to getting a nice finish, like for a concrete walkway, and I haven't learned too many of those.

[Tim]

Looking great Jeff! I love the layout, especially how the lighting is positioned into the steps. Nice touch!:thumbup:

<,"}/>{ Tim

[Stonehenge]

Thanks! :D I hope none of our clients visit this site - this project (patio and scape), even though the patio isn't that big, is the one that gets me the most excited of all the work we're doing this year.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

I find that every year I have one project that particularly catches my fancy. My most recent was the bluestone/granite patio. I love all projects but some get my creative juices flowing more. I think it's a combination of a new scope/type of project, customer giving me the reigns, and an adequate budget.

[Terry D]

Jeff, out of curiosity, how are you doing money wise on this project?

Are you meeting your budgeted hours or exceeding them?

Was there anything you would do different in the future with a similar project?

Anything catch you off guard ... time wise or money wise?

Im asking because I've found that whenever I become too attached to an awesome project, I have a tendancy to start adding little extras here and there, spending a little too much time nmaking everything just so, and although i don't have regrets later, still I'm taking a hit in the pocketbook, mainly because I liked the project and wanted it to shine.

[BRL]

"I have a tendancy to start adding little extras here and there, spending a little too much time nmaking everything just so, and although i don't have regrets later, still I'm taking a hit in the pocketbook, mainly because I liked the project and wanted it to shine."

LOL - Ain't this the truth! Hate when that happens, but sure do like looking at the project & talking about it later. ;) Had this same thought on yesterday's project, and don't really want to look at how many hours over budget I might be at for that one. But it is sure fun to work on lol.

[Stonehenge]

That may be the case for this project, though it shouldn't be much. About the only little freebie add-on I tossed in was putting a geotextile to straddle between the concrete slab we poured and the native soils. Through some tapcons through the fabric into the slab to anchor it - hoping this will prevent any uneven settling between slab area and non-slab area.

Oh - and yesterday we tacked on another 4x6 onto the retaining wall structure for their egress window - it was too low for the things we were doing around it.

But I do know what you mean - when you get a project that you think is going to help define you and your company, there is a tendency to throw out the budget and do all you can to make the project better than perfect.

We've made some progress at this project - I'll have to take a few more pics and get them up.

[Stonehenge]

Here's an updated photo on the progress of this project. Still have some grading work in the front, a few trees and shrubs, 286 perennials, and hydroseeding. Oh - and lights.

[jwholden]

ssssssssmokin! :cigar:

286 perennials :huh:

[Terry D]

Jeff are those bricks tilted downward on the mowband for a reason, or is it a optical illusion?

[Stonehenge]

JW - that's the same look my guys gave me when I told them we were planting 286 perennials. :)

Terry - Not an illusion - the grade leading to the house slopes up, and that's the primary reason for the slope you see in the brick, but in general I like to have the bed side of the brick sitting just a bit higher than the lawn side. Makes bed/grade prep a little easier.

In this pic you can see the neighbor's fence - it is the ugliest fence I've seen in a long time, with big metal brackets used to tack each fence panel to a 4x4. We're planting Viburnum, Chokeberry and Buckthorn (yes, Buckthorn) to hide that ugly thing.

[Terry D]

but in general I like to have the bed side of the brick sitting just a bit higher than the lawn side.

We're the same way ... we probably would have ran it level with the patio height and then added another row of brick for the lawn. More work more money, loss of space etc. but worth it.

BTW, that will be an excellent yard when complete, I can see it already!

[Stonehenge]

Wow!! Is that your work?

Do my eyes deceive me or is that a cultured stone veneer on that wall?

Very slick, very nice. I think I have hardscape envy...

[Terry D]

I'll send another angle w/ some comments.

[Terry D]

Yep, no need for envy, this was just a simple cinderblock wall that got faced with the culture stone, and a culture cap.

However the pier caps were special ordered from "Architectural Facades" who charge an arm & legs to precast w/ specialized colors.

The main point in the first photo was to show the 2 step levels from lawn and patio. The patio was stamped concrete, paid some slugs $300 each for the day and they 'knocked it out'.

Here's the front, that gray pier cap was 24" X 24" and cost us $350 each! We simply epoxied it down.