Bonding Bluestone to Retaining Walls

[jwholden]

I will be creating a step for a paver walk this week by glueing a 5' piece of 1 1/2-2" bluestone on top or a SRW riser. I'm not crazy about the idea but the homeowner wants to work some bluestone in to match what's on the property. What is the recommended lip on the front of the step, I was thinking 1 - 1 1/2 "?

I am going to take my time leveling the block and will clean the bluestone and SRW well before applying the adhesive.

Is there anything else I should/could be doing to make this process go smoothly WITHOUT FAILURE?

[Rex Mann]

That 1-1 1/2 will give you a nice shadow line. Only thing I'd do is to picth the step forward for drainage. Because of the large surface area of the bluestone.

Peace,

Rex

[jwholden]

Thanks Rex.

[PSUscaper]

Hello,

I wouldn't go much more than 1 1/2" on the lip as it begins to become a trip hazard, especially if they are only 12" deep treads.

One trick, learned from others here, is the use of a angle grinder and diamond grinding cup. For all my capping and stair tread projects on SRW's, I use the grinder on a regular basis to help smooth out any imperfections on the top of the block or make up for any variances in the block tops due to slight deviations that arise as a wall is built.

For blue stone especially, it is important that when you set the tread on the block, it doesn't teeter/rock at all. Although the adhesive may make up for the difference, over time, it may flex a little (as it is suppose to) and the stone can crack. If you have a perfectly flat surface from the get go, then all the glue has to do is hold it in place.....not keep it from rocking.

Many guys just go the mortar route as you can make up for the block deviations....... but I still have my doubts about how well mortared caps/treads hold up over time do to the fact that the wall is flexible.

steve

[jwholden]

I saw the homeowner at the jobsite today and talked him out of the glued bluestone idea. He wanted to use a couple spare treads he had around from when he redid his front entry. They were 'old' looking and still had a lot of cement stuck to the bottom. I explained that we wouldn't get as good a bond as we would with something cleaner and frankly this two treads would have made the job look hideous.:frank:

Thanks for the advice. I know I'll use it in the future.

Especially the angle grinder idea. Nice.

[jwholden]

Steve,

You responded to one of my first posts about a Techo-Block job I was working on. I remember discussing the rocking of blocks (and coping) due to the 'poor quality' of some of the block. On that job I ended up using some cement triangles as shims where the coping moved too much. Worked great.

You may want to look at this http://www.pavetech.com/newtools/ezshim.shtm if you are still having trouble with rocking blocks.

Take care,

John

[Stonehenge]

Sweet! Never saw those before. I'll order some up this week. Nice link JW!

[jwholden]

Jeff,

Hey wouldn't they be a great sponsor?

You want to call them or should I have them call you?:D

[Lanelle]

They have some other neat new products also:
http://www.pavetech.com/newtools/flexmarker.shtm

[Stonehenge]

I haven't looked at their literature in awhile - looks like they have some cool additions.

And JW - as I understand it, Tim from Accuscreed may already have sent the word out to them. They would be an excellent sponsor - they fit right in with the topics here. And with our guys already using some of their tools (Slab Grabber, Paver Square, Saw Cart, Paver Extractor), I can tell you they sell quality, tough tools.

[jwholden]

Lanelle,

I need to get a copy of their catalog, lots of cool toys.

I saw that photo and started thinking about what I could do with the concept. I was wandering the Depot and found 1/2" PVC electrical conduit (quite flexible) for .85/10' section. This stuff has male and female ends so you can connect it for really long curves. I bought about 14.00 of the stuff to complete this job. Further, I cut shorter pieces to keep the sidewalk sides paralell even with the curve.

Try it!

[jwholden]

Man it looks like that place was hit by a bomb. Darn skidsteer!!!!

[Stonehenge]

That's how we've been marking longer curves for more than 10 years.

This one was done with about 70' of 1/2" PVC...

[jwholden]

Just when I think I'm getting better at this paver stuff you show pictures like that and blow me right out of the water.

But it's ok.

It's Like when you play tennis with someone better than you, you only get better!

[Rex Mann]

I love my flexible 1/2 pvc. And, don't forget the sharpie.

We use it for anything, which is not a straight cut.

Peace,

Rex

[BJR]

I'v been using conduit for 20 years. NA NA.

Jeff, do you cut your edge pavers around the curves so that you don't get those ugly V joints?

[BJR]

Here's a photo of what I mean.

We cut every 2nd edge paver.

[Stonehenge]

Re: cutting the soldier course - it depends on the project. Some we do, but many we don't. The market here just doesn't have an appreciation for that extra work, and so we can't charge for it. Which means, unless there's a need to, or it really affects the look, we don't.

Those are some tight seams! On the projects we do cut the soldier course pavers, we do as you do - pie shaped pieces vs cutting just one edge. Seems simple enough, but I see lots of companies cutting just one side, giving the soldier course an awful look.

[Stonehenge]

JW - It's not a competition... One of the things that always drives me is when I see other great work - makes me question how good we really are, drives me to improve. I'm sure Paul could post all kinds of pics of really cool projects that would blow lots of us away. (BTW Paul, have you guys wrapped up that Fire Dept project with the ladder and hose inlays?) Besides, the pictures you've posted are of very solid work. The only difference between the pic you posted and the one I posted is scale of project. Nothing more.

As for marking, we use welder's chalk, also called soapstone.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

No offense taken, just having fun.

Rex,

Sharpie, hmm...considered it but thought the sand would kill it too quick. Next time I'm at staples I'll give it a try.

I use the soapstone as well. It's hard to find a box of chalk these days.

[jwholden]

BJR,

Noone goes that far around here either, except for the guy that does the paver suppliers displays. However, I admit I did try it once but gave up after no luck the first few times and realizing the amount of time involved.

Is there a method to making those cuts. I went by trial and error and didn't have luck.

[Stonehenge]

I use Mr. Eyeball. I just start running a bunch of brick through the tub saw, some with a bit more of a wedge, some a bit less (variances of up to 1/4" on both sides). After I have about 20, I go to the spot where they're going in and just place the one that fits best.

We do this most often on steps.

The other option is to lay out the every other paver that will not be cut, spaced in BJR's photo on the inside by a full brick width, and lay the paver directly on top of the gap, and mark.

[Paul]

As I look back at the pictures you post and the size of the jobs you all do, I begin to realize that a small nicely done paver area really says more of the total design that a large job. What I mean is you can really get the feel for the design on a small project than being over whelmed by the expanse of pavers on some of these jobs we do.

[BJR]

I place the full pavbers around the edge with a paver width gap at the widest point. Then I measure the narrow gap and mark the paver. It is time consuming, but it is what gets me jobs over some of the others. My paving is the deares in the area. if they can't afford to do it my way, I don't want to do the job. There are lots of average landscapers around but only a few who do exceptional work. So I compete with them. Less competition for the up market jobs.

I use Chinograph pencils for my marking.

Here is another pic of what we do around circular drains.

[BJR]

Here it is.

[BJR]

I've also done the large jobs and the small. I much prefer the smaller projects. You have time for the detail.

large jobs are more a business state of mind, not an artistic state of mind.

I am also making bigger profits now doing up market smaller projects than i did doing the larger $250K jobs. I spent too much time on detail even though I haden't allowed for it in the pricing.

[Stonehenge]

BJR, I tweaked your pic a bit so I could see the detail a bit better....

[Stonehenge]

That drain looks great. I've heard that to do that you need to use a core bit. True? If so, what kind of drill drives that bit?

[BJR]

No, we mark the cut on the pavers and stand the pavers on their edge on the brick saw. We then cut a lot of cuts down to the mark on the paver, similar to what you would do to timber to check it out. We then break away the pieces and grind the edge smooth to the line. Takes about 10min per drain. We do all circular cuts this way. It works well for square cuts around posts as well.

I allow for a 1-2mm gap for my pavers. The worse the sizing the bigger the gaps get.

[Stonehenge]

With a core bit you could do a cut like that in about 2 minutes.

1-2mm gap? you must not have spacer nubs on your pavers - our gaps here are already 4-5 mm, even with pavers sitting side by side.

[dan deutekom]

BJR does his cuts like I do. Core bits are darn expesive and it is very seldom that the size of circle or drain that has to be cut is the same size as the core bit you have. Besides if I have to go to the rental store to get the bit and the drill 10 minutes isn't a long time to spend on a cut like this.

[Paul]

I depends on how many cut you need to make, we own a few different sizes starting at 1" up to 6", We bought a adapter for our 1/2" Milwaukee drill this saved us a bunch of money I think it cost us $90 for it and $300 for the bits, we have not worn them out yet :)

[Stonehenge]

Dan - can you design the work to fit with the bits you would have?

[dan deutekom]

Don't actually have any bits. If I ever have a pressing need we just rent them. Mostly use them for boring through concrete foundations to install conduit or piping from the interior of the building to the great outdoors. Even then quite often I will just use a star drill and hammer. Then patch with a little quick set concrete if the work will be hidden.

[PSUscaper]

You can all throw you 1/2 pipe away.......

Just sell nothing but running bond pattern walkways......never need to cut a thing then!

I'm honestly thinking about this idea........it seems you get the same $ for whatever pattern you install........so why not just zero all other choices out and sell the running bond?

steve

[jwholden]

Paul,

Do you have any shots of the jobs you do? I'd love to see them.

[Paul]

I have a few older ones around but seeing this is my last year doing installs, I haven't been taking any pictures of work this year.

[jwholden]

Paul,

Are you getting out of the business? Trying a different type of work? Retiring?

[Paul]

Retiring :) 20 plus years of doing this has offered me a chance to do more of what I wanted to do and I want to enjoy a few good years before my health limits me.