View Full Version : Patterned Concrete?
jwholden
09-09-2003, 09:15 PM
Around my part of the country a thing called Patterned concrete is taking off. There are three companies doing it and apparently they are making it look less like concrete every day.
I always tell people when making proposals that concrete is going to be cheaper than pavers but that pavers (1) look better and (2) hold up better in the long run. However, I recently lost two jobs to patterned concrete and the second I lost was a bit unnerving.
The gentlemen told me the concrete guy looked at his back yard and shot him a rough quote of around $2400 for a 14 x 10 patio. Thats over $17.00 a square foot. Where is the savings? Am I pricing pavers to cheap at $15.00 a square foot?
It seems to me that patterned concrete is more or less equal to the cost of pavers and I need to work on my sales skills. Perhaps I will start keeping a piece of spalled and cracked concrete in the back of my truck to show my prospective customer at the initial meeting (he he).
How does the price of patterned concrete compare to pavers in your area?
Lanelle
09-09-2003, 09:20 PM
I don't know about the price but I do know that the finishes are applied to the concrete so its only a matter of time until the finish fails, fades or otherwise looks bad. And the problem of cracking still looms. Oh, here it's sometimes called Stampcrete.
Stonehenge
09-09-2003, 09:25 PM
That stuff is all over the place here, and we rarely lose work to them.
My pitch?
"For the same or less money, you can get the real thing. Why pay more for the imitation?"
They've made improvements over the last 2 decades, but even so, in 3 years the color will not be anywhere close, and with the stamping or patterns, they are creating thousands of weak points where the concrete can and will crack. 15+ years ago they would pour regular concrete and add pigment on top. Now 1 pigment is pre-mixed, a second is gingerly tossed on top before pressing the pattern in. They will both fade in time.
jwholden
09-09-2003, 09:42 PM
Not to be on the wrong side of the fence, but I swear my patio which I installed last August is lighter than when installed. I probably should have upsold myself on a sealer.
Stonehenge
09-09-2003, 09:53 PM
Traffic on concrete pavers can wear pigment off of the aggregate stones closest to the surface. If the aggregate is light colored, the pavers will look lighter.
Sealer helps provide a buffer for that traffic, and the wearing of the pigment.
Rex Mann
09-10-2003, 12:00 AM
In the war against "fancy concrete" I use the following in selling:
It still is concrete no matter how they dress it it up
It loses its skid resistance when pigment and finishing is applied
Being mixed on site it is very dependent on experience of installer and the weather
Samples shown rarely look like the finished product
Peace,
Rex
Does anyone use clay bricks? If you are in an area where they are historically correct, I think that you will find a very willing upscale client. That is when you can be comparing the "real" thing to concrete pavers.
Concrete pavers are not well received in the upscale market here because people perceive them as imitation brick or imitation stone. ... which is really what most of them are.
If there is no very heavy load, why not go for the real thing?
Stonehenge
09-10-2003, 06:53 AM
When I was working in the Detroit area, we had never done a clay paver project. Ever. It was a new thing for me when I moved to Wisconsin.
Unfortunately, while the people here have an appreciation for clay, they many times do not have the budget.
Agla, I would bet in your market that the upscale clients are more sensitive to the historical use of the materials, living in an area where there are so many vintage homes.
The material appreciation or sensitivity seems less in Detroit, and in Wisconsin, even though they do like clay pavers here.
A couple other concrete disadvantages that paver installers might want to touch on with their potential clients are: 1. Stamped concrete is commonly dyed by hand casting pigments. This powder becomes airborne and adheres to everything. One serious problem area for this pigment is the caulking around windows and doors. I know of one contractor that had to completely reside and caulk an entire building because of this. (Not me, thank God!) 2. Concrete contractors doing stamped commonly track or slop concrete onto other existing surfaces leaving eye sore areas for the home owners.
An After thought- Concrete will pit if you put salt on it in the winter, do pavers suffer to some extent as well?
Stamped or patterned concrete is going from $8-$14 a sqft here.
:alien: Tim
Stamped and stencilled concrete was appeared here in Aus a long time ago.
When it first appeared about 50% of drives were brick paved (we mainly use clay pavers), now only about 10% are paved.
Stamped concrete has fallen out of favour becaure of the slip and ware factor, but, stencilled concrete has taken over. The new surface of stencelled concrete is over 50MPA. We can take our machines onto them and not leave a mark. I tis also slip resestant.
The cost is app $60/sq metre compared to app $80/sq metre for pavers, depending on the cost of the paver.
Specialised brick paving contractors were many about 15 years ago, now there would only be 1/3 of them left. Most had to diversify to keep going, or just got out of the business all together.
Is a Purrington Paver considered a clay paver? We acquire these on a regular basis from tearing up streets. We have sold them in the past for up to $2 each. But I have heard that thy have fetched as much as $3 each if they are in primo condition down South. What do they go for in other people's markets? :wha: Tim
Stonehenge
09-10-2003, 04:55 PM
Tim, are those the very thick, extremely heavy brick that many times have the mfg name embossed or pressed into the brick?
They are so rare around here that nobody even knows what to do with them when they find them, so many times they are 'finders keepers'.
If you had the yard to store them, I'd sell 'em for $3/brick. Where else you gonna get those?
Stonehenge
09-10-2003, 04:57 PM
That stenciled stuff has begun to show up around here in the last 5 years. It is only 1/16 - 1/8" thick, applied to the top of existing concrete, and leaves a very nice finish.
However, with clients interest in authenticity, that still does not seem to be much of a threat to our local market. At least not yet.
jwholden
09-10-2003, 05:52 PM
I have not dabbled into anything but paver pavers. Is a clay paver anything different than the bricks I see some people selling? I gave a bid for 'real brick' pavers once and the only thing I remember was they told me to put a piece of plywood over them before I compacted.
Stonehenge
09-10-2003, 06:06 PM
Some people call clay 'real brick' (I'm sure most everyone in Agla's neck of the woods does ;) ). Are they any different? I'd say yes.
Many times they are kiln fired, which makes them like snowflakes - no two are the same, as they twist and bend in the heat of the kiln. Makes them harder to keep straight bond lines for. As for compacting, you oughta be using a urethane pad on your compactor anyway, so the plywood isn't necessary. Not to mention it'll take less time to throw on that pad than use plywood.
You have to make sure it is a clay paver, and not a solid clay face brick (though we've installed those a few times as pavers) - those are face brick that were not designed or mfgd to withstand the abuse a pavement must, and may likely fail in time.
Some big brands here - Pine Hall, Endicott (just came into this market), Whitacre-Greer (but nobody supplies them anymore - too brittle - they crack and pop if you look at them funny), Glen-Gery, Pacific Clay...I'm sure that regionally there are many mfgs of clay pavers, but those are the ones I've seen around here. I believe Glen Gery even began offering circle kits - I never sold one, but wanted to.
One beautiful clay mfg is Yankee Hill. Simply gorgeous brick, but they cost a small fortune.
S.H. Yes, the things must weigh 10lbs each. They were used for all of the roads around here in the old days. They were placed/set on their sides though, not flat like a normal app. Lots of home owners have purchased these from us for their own do it yourself projects. Tim
Usually what scares folks away from the stamped concrete is how slippery it is. I see some mention here of traction enhancement, but I haven't seen it on a job yet.
Clay pavers- we use all the time. Like 10 clay jobs to every 1 concrete paver job. They are in style here, and they will be 20 years from now too. I personally prefer to look at brick vs concrete.
the stencilled concrete i'm talking about is done straight onto the wet concrete.
dan deutekom
09-11-2003, 06:24 PM
I have just started to see some stamped/paterned concrete here. I was not impressed by the look at all. Another thing that suprised me was how slippery it is when wet or even worse when a little snow gets on it. Just like glare ice. Hurts when you fall:angry:
Stonehenge
09-11-2003, 06:49 PM
I've begun to see a little stamped asphalt here as well. One hot day with a fair amount of traffic and the impressions begin to deform.
dan deutekom
09-11-2003, 07:36 PM
About 5 years ago a local paving company did 2 driveways with stamped asphalt. I kind of liked the look (for a paved drive) and it seems to have held up well so far. But those 2 drives are the only ones I have seen and this guy does a lot of paving in our area.
Stonehenge
09-11-2003, 07:38 PM
The stuff I saw was part of an entryway to a store. By the end of the season, where the traffic patterns were, there was little or no texture left, and most of the pigment (red) was gone.
dan deutekom
09-11-2003, 07:53 PM
These 2 driveways were just regular black and residential. Big difference in traffic.
I have never seen patterned asphalt around my neck of the woods. I do not think it would last long here, especially in any traffic areas was hot as it gets for us during the summer. I have done quite a bit of stenciled concrete work though. Not the micro 1/8" overlay type that S.H. mentioned. It has always been 4" or 6" virgin applications. As BJR states, it can have decent surface traction. Contractors should use a horse hair broom (nice & fine) to texture the surface when they are ready to finish and strip. We do this before removing the stencils to keep from distorting any of the patterns. It is simply just a timing thing. Good traction can still be achieved. Stamped concrete... thats another story. I would much rather have the real thing. That stuff is almost always too slick for me to stay vertical! :cry: Tim
dan deutekom
09-11-2003, 08:27 PM
The concrete I have seen in our area has a shiny surface as if it is coated with an epoxy?
That is the UV protected stuff. Black? That is the most common here. Could also be that they put sealer over the app too. That is what we normally do. Usually either Spectrum, or TK Bright. Tim
We also have the stencilled concrete that Stonehenge was talking about.
They spray a levelling/base coat on first. Let it dry, then place the stencil and spray a second coloured coat.
It is good for dressing up old concrete drives. I is slip sesistand and very hard waring. I have never seen patterned asphalt.
You guys have lots of things that I can't get over here. The palm nailer is one, and the easy shims is another. But that is what you get when you live on a beautiful island separate from the rest of the world.
I haven't even seen Tim's products over here.
Tim, the red saddle in the photo under your name, do you make them so that conduit can be clipped into them so thet it will hold the conduit tight? It would be a good idea when screeding areas such as curved drives, such as the one in the photo I am going to post once I have scanned it.
The owner is an engineer and gave us points to go to every 1/2 metre. It is an actual sin curve. Remember your maths.
Stonehenge
09-12-2003, 07:03 AM
We'll be doing a walkway that the client told me was an ogive (OH-jive) curve - I had never heard of that before. This client is also a bit geeky. :geek:
The driveway looks great! :cool2:
Lanelle
09-12-2003, 09:00 AM
I'm wondering if that is the same as 'ogee'? Ogee is a particular type of curve shape often applied to edges of material such as glass for furniture.
BJR - That's a beautiful project.
That is really a beautiful project BJR. Very nice lines, and the fall looks excellent for the difficult layout. To answer your question. Many people believe our system is using conduit as it's screed pipe. Actually, the conduit (1/2" EMT - 1.27cm) is only used as the screed stakes. The proper screed pipe size to use(1 5/8"OD -4.76cm) for the AccuScreed System's yokes commonly is either water/gas pipe, or top rail to commercial chain link fence. I am sure that once the stakes have been set, one could use a crimping devise to secure the yokes into the conduit stands, but not however to the screed pipe. The yokes are made from nylon, and designed to maintain their shape. The shafts of the yokes however, are threaded to allow for vertical height adjustments by utilizing nuts. We actually do have several customers in Australia. If you would like, I may be able to give you a reference contact there. Hope this helps. :) Tim
Ogive is any continuous cumulative frequency curve (which differs from a frequency curve). That's the best way I can describe it. A sin curve is a type of ogive curve.
Thanks for the compliment. I did it 20 years ago.
Stonehenge
09-13-2003, 08:24 AM
I tried to find a mathematical description of an ogive curve and all I could find were a few sites defining it as 2 curves of indeterminate length or shape or anything....
It's been many years since I've had any math classes - what's the difference between cumulative frequency and frequency curves?
O my God! We've digressed to the mathematical anomolies of Iggy Stardust LOL. I had a diagram for a patio from an enginner that told me that his neighbors all loved the payio I installed. He said that he stole some of my thunder though when he told them that he designed it. I asked him if he told them that I made it work anyway? He got a kick out of that.
Stonehenge
09-14-2003, 12:54 PM
We did some work for an engineer years ago - said to make sure that when we reinstalled the new paver patio that we use the exact dimensions of the original octagonal patio. So I assured him he would.
After completion he was marveling at the new patio and made some comment about each of the sides being exactly 7'2". I told him - "You said you wanted the new patio with the exact dimensions of the old, which is what we did. This side is 7' 3 1/2", that side is 7' 4", that side is 7' 1 5/8"...." I got a good chuckle...he was a little embarrassed. :blush:
I just got the description from a web site. Thought you knew what I was saying, huh.
A cumulative curve is like a sound wave that can keep carrying on and a frequency curve is like one upside down blunt nosed cone.
Stonehenge
09-14-2003, 04:59 PM
Hmmm...
You got me curious so I checked into it a bit.
A cumulative frequency curve, as represented on a graph, is an S shaped curve (ogive) that continuously gets larger X and Y values. Think of a frequency curve laid at a 45 degree angle between the X and Y axes. No matter if the wave is at it's peak or trough, the point immediately before it has a lower value for X and Y, the point after always has higher X and Y values.
An example of a frequency curve (like a Sine wave) would be an S curve laid horizontally, where the X value continue to grow at the same rate, and the Y value oscillates between the peak and the trough, with the mean between the peak and trough always being the same value, no matter where you measure along that frequency curve.
I think that even the most discerning engineer would have a hard time telling the difference between either when presented in hardscape form. :geek:
dan deutekom
09-14-2003, 06:20 PM
:huh: :wha:
You have to be a :scholar: to understand this thread
Stonehenge
09-14-2003, 06:38 PM
Naw - it's just so darn hard to explain stuff with text like this. I was going to make some pictures, my preferred method of communication (behind actual talking), but it was going to take too long.
Yeah, it's a bit mottled, but I enjoyed engaging that part of my brain...haven't done that in awhile. :huh: Thanks for putting up with it. :flowers: And thanks to BJR for making my brain do a few exercises. :weights:
diginahole
09-14-2003, 08:49 PM
I don't go as far as sine waves or cumulonibus curves tangent to the hyperbolies when designing hardscapes:huh: but...... designing in CAD makes it easy to locate center points of arcs by triangulation off two known points on the building.
BTW.... I had the opportunity help a potential client understand the drawbacks of patterned concrete yesterday. The one statement that seemed to tip the scales in favour of interlocking pavers was "Why pay more for an immitation when you could have the real thing?" There is a very well done patterned concrete job around the corner from this guy that has surely influenced him. Will know better next week how my pitch went over.
Stonehenge
09-14-2003, 08:58 PM
I'll be extremely happy if that line tipped the scales for you. :D :D :D :D
Now that I have CAD (to answer the next question in advance, NO , I haven't created a design with it yet :( ), I look forward to using that feature - I'm finding my guys don't like having to take their own measurements from a drawing and translate it to the ground. In 1/8" scale it's easy to be off on a hardscape size by 6", depending on the thickness of the pencil lead and attention to detail of the designer. And 6" difference in a project can mean a lot.
Did I just hear somebody yell green side up already? :huh: Tim
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