Job of the week

[jwholden]

Today I had one of those days when everything clicked.

I have been trying different methods for building paver walks and today's system, or order of operations, is what I'll use for a while. Furthermore, because I have been doing more paver work this year than other years I stopped myself from making mistakes BEFORE I made them. To top it off I was in a relaxed mood and everyone got along, great day!!!

I have used cast iron pipes to screed my base the last three jobs. I screeded and tamped the base two times before laying the stone dust. RATHER THAN 1", I USED 1/2" PIPE TO SCREED THE STONEDUST. The screeding went very quickly AND I harldly used any stonedust plus there is very little fluff to screw things up.

Below is a shot of my 1/2" pipes waiting for some stonedust. I know the 'old timers' on the site have been screeding like this for a while but I am darn happy to have a base that flat!

[jwholden]

This is a shot of where we were at the end of the day. We started laying the block at about 2:00 and wrapped things up at about 3:45. I thought it was pretty good time and bond lines, much better than when the year started!

[Rex Mann]

JW,

What's up with using stone dust and not sand?

Why do you use stone dust/

Peace,

Rex Mann

[jwholden]

Rex,

Up until this year I had been specifically looking for 'course angular sand'. However, this year I said to heck with it let me get what's available. I did use over 4" of well compacted 3/4 - for a base.

Have you seen bad things happen with 1/2 -1" of stone dust on top of 3/4 -?

[Stonehenge]

Looks good. :D

Looks like you went to great pains to get the bonds lines straight.

[jwholden]

What are the acceptable tolerances/methods in Wisconsin?

[Stonehenge]

For bond lines? I guess it depends on the company. We snap chalk lines to guide us in laying. For base prep, you already know what we do (I think). ;)

[jwholden]

Hmmm...Chalk lines, I like it. Though I never tried it on sand, it couldn't hurt! I know your methods on base prep and have incorporated them into my 'New and Improved' method. Though I cannot drop the sand completely, yet.

How do you handle areas where you need to do some fine tuning of the grade, such as where the walk meets the drive, using your method? I cannot imagine doing that without some sand.

[jwholden]

We finished up today. Here's how it came out.

[Stonehenge]

Looks good. Good continuity of flowing lines from above the step and below the step.

Matching up to another pavement - why would you need sand? I'm not sure I understand.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

As I was working on this project and noting how proficient we are getting at leveling the base I was thinking about your method. I cannot use a screed board near the drive because the pavement is always wavy and as hard as I try to rake the base to the right height to compensate for my sand, I always fail. I install the pavers near the drive one at a time and tamp them with a dead blow hammer to be sure they will not sink below the pavement when they are hit with the wacker.

If you are using only 3/4 process, how do you pick up an extra 1/4"? What happens if someone took a vacation while screeding the base by the front steps and it's out of level and you need to compensate by raising the base a bit, but only on one side (Please don't tell me you always level it just right)?

One thing I noticed is that when screeding multiple times you end up with a lot of gravel, because all of the fines drop out as you screed. I think you actually are using sand, just that you seperate out the gravel on the second or third screed.

[jwholden]

To all out there,

I know that no one likes to talk price but how much is the going rate for something like this? I used 5 1/2 yards of 3/4 process, 1 yard of stone dust, 150 square feet of tumbled pavers, and 72 linear feet of snap-edge edging. We had to reroute a pipe from the downspout that ran under the walk with greenpipe and that was about 18' of pipe.

Feel free to PM me if you want to share your input privately.

[diginahole]

Hey nice job John, I like the curves. In my neck of the woods that would sell for a bit over 2 G's. We would knock that off in a day.

[jwholden]

We would knock that off in a day.

:shocking:

[diginahole]

John,

I looked over your pictures of this job and I see a couple of ways to shave some time off your installs. First off you are handling the pavers way too much. The time taken to pile them along side the walkway is all but a waste if they are not stacked in nice neat piles easily reached from the laying face and the different sizes in different piles. Leave the sections banded and bring them where the driveway meets the walkway and carry the pavers to the laying face as they are laid. For multi sized pavers take some time to figure out the ratio between sizes and make it the carriers job to bring them at the correct ratio. Secondly, as you become more proficient at grading you will find keeping bond lines straight can be done with only one string, flat bases produce straight bond lines naturally. The third point is iffy but if that step was placed square to the bond lines it would have saved cutting on at least one side and with careful planning both sides of the step. Were you able to reuse all the excavated soil left beside the walk? I would guess you weren't. There has got to be an easier spot you could place the spoils so the excess could easily be cleaned up and hauled away. As you know I like the road but that may not be an option for you. My excavations normally only extend 8" beyond the finished pavers. It only takes about 20 minutes to cut in the 5 rolls of sod that would be needed finish up the outside of that walk.

Now don't get me wrong, you have done a wonderful job. I just see some things from the operational end that could save you a ton of money. I hope these pointers can help you out.

[Stonehenge]

With the pipe work, probably around $2500 here (I'm doing what I can to scare away projects that are less than $4K or $5K).

And for pedestrian pavements, we use screenings (bigger than stone dust, smaller than your 3/4 process). But for along the drive, we use a notched screed board that looks like the one below. Both hands are placed on the narrow end of the board and pulled along the drive. And for the other end that meets the steps, if I was off a bit, I should've noticed it after the first screed, that the base was not level relative to the steps or porch or whatever, and adjusted the pipe at that point.

[Paul]

You know I was about to say the same thing, if I was excavating the spoils are either leaving the site as fast as the are comming out or headed to a place where I can lose it on site. The paver bundles are going to sit close to the area of installation. They will remaing banded until we are ready to install. Both lines of edging would be installed before spreading my sand.

[Stonehenge]

And I echo what Digin said. It's a great looking project. :D And you probably have more opportunities to shave time from a project like this. Especially for a project of this size, even if you only snap a single chalk line and happen to veer from it a bit, I've found it faster to keep laying and make adjustments when done (taking 3-5 minutes), than taking the time it took to set up the multiple string lines and laying the pavers according to those string lines. For a larger patio we're more careful about bond lines, because you can really get out of whack if you don't mind your chalk lines.

And I agree with Digin that the carriers of brick (I call them 'Schleppers') have the jobs of:

Mixing the pavers from different pallets to get an even color mix,

Placing the pavers where I need them, not where I just was,

Picking up extra pavers behind me and putting them where I need them,

Paying attention to what paver sizes I need and bringing those.

For me personally, I like the use of the angled step. I appreciate elements of a project that added extra work to achieve a slightly different look.

And for timing - yeah, a crew should certainly be able to knock that out in a day.

[Stonehenge]

You know, I didn't even notice that the excavated soils were still alongside the work. One option - back a truck up and shovel right into the truck. Another, fill w/b's and dump them into the skid steer bucket, then into the truck.

I just got all over a guy's case 2 days ago because he was adding 3 extra steps onto his brick cutting method.

[jwholden]

Do any of you guys want to do some work as a sub in CT?

I can take constructive criticism, I just hate criticism.

It seems I check my bond lines too much. I had some bad episodes when I started this stuff and vowed to not let it get out of hand again. I honestly (was) trying to keep the string ahead of the game so I could stop any problems before they got out of hand. It seems like the vets just snap a chalk line and do some toe kicking to clean things up. I'll give it a shot.

I left the soil on the side of the walk because the client said to. I didn't want to screw the place up with the machine so we actually hand dug the trench (time kill central). No machine, hence, I couldn't't place the pallet of pavers 1/2 way down the walk and have the schleppers do their thing.

The pavers we use (Techo-Block) do not come in bands. However, I like the tumbled and ridged look. They are sold in rows so I don't think the band moving idea will work. However, I like the idea of placing the pallet in one spot and have the guys keep bringing them up the walk to me. We end up moving the darn pavers multiple times.

I dig out 12" beyond the end of the walk. This again goes back to some poor calculations when I was starting out and the fact that these curved walks always seem to end up curving in a different direction than planned. Perhaps I need to plan better!

Putting the edging down first never seemed logical to me for a curved walk. I like to be able to change the curves if things don't look right and have this fear of the edging being 1/2" too wide or too narrow.

I'm going to go to my garage tomorrow and cut that screed for the edge of the drive. DUH!

Guys, thanks for the input. I am not offended and please don't be afraid to add more. I can take it!:)

[jwholden]

BTW, the job was priced at 2450. Hopefully I can make it MUCH more profitable in the future. :cool2:

[Paul]

The nice thing about edging is that you can move it :) you don't have to drive the nails all the way down , leave them up an inch or 2. That way you can pull a few nails and move the edge if you need to. We install it because we have detailed drawing showing us curves with radius and all the angles are given to us.

I do have a question for you: Did the homeowner remove the spoils or did you? If you ended up removing the spoils then rethink how you go about your job set up and lay out. I say this because I saw another picture of a wals you did with spoils set to the other side.

I agree with you on the look of the pavers, it's some very nice work!

[diginahole]

I carry several notched screed boards, 8" ,4' 6', 8'. Plywood is more durable than softwood. Trick: pound a couple of nails in the edge that rides on the asphalt or coping, great wear resistence. In a pinch you can use the landscapers utility knife (gas cut off saw with diamond blade) to cut notches.

[jwholden]

Paul,

This was the one job of my life where the homeowner said to just go ahead and leave the spoils where they lay. They are still sitting right there.

That job with the pile of dirt inside the walk was 1/2 poor planning and 1/2 poor communication between me and the designer. I was hoping he would start the landscape soon and take care of the cleanup, hence I left the huge mound in the poor spot.

[jwholden]

Digin,

You carry 4,6, and 8' notched screed boards along with what you use to screed over the pipes?

I'll definitely put some nice nails in my screed boards.

[diginahole]

They are what I use to screed over pipe with. If you are thinking about that 16' timber I used on the driveway last month, I don't carry that with me. That was a unique application, I don't often get the opportunity to drag a 16' screed with the skid steer.

I often cut a notch in each end of the screed. Sized for 60mm at one end and 70mm at the other and clearly marked accordingly.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

I haven't found anything like screening here - either stonedust or 3/4 process. Closest I came was a supplier who offered to mix 3/8 gravel with coarse sand to make a custom 3/8 process.

It seems to me that if I make my new custom screed boards I could put down 3/4 process first then use stonedust or course sand for my final screed(s) of the base. This would be a VERY flat surface. This should allow me to skip the sand or stonedust screening part altogether.

Then

Snap my chalk lines

Lay my pavers.

A little toe tappin.

Sand, edgeing, tamp.

Lay some sod.

Get out of there.

[Stonehenge]

The nails is a good idea. :) For adjustments in paver size, we use duct tape on the notch in the screed board. We start by putting a bit more than needed, so when we're done, the tape has worn down to the right size, give or take a 1/16".

For boards, we now carry an 8' and 10' magnesium screed board, and then a set of 3',4',5',6' screed boards, some with notches, some without (hole drilled through the middle, tied into a bunch with a rope). I always get ticked when guys see an 8' notched board and size it down by cutting off the notch!!

[Rex Mann]

Bond line specs per ICPI: + or - 1/2 inch over 50 feet.

Peace,

Rex

[Rex Mann]

JW,

Stonedust and screenings are made up of clay and silt, which are classified as fine materials. The finer the material the more moisture it will hold. The longer water will take to drain off and so on. Also, these materials are sometimes to coarse to fit between the joints of the pavers. Therefore, hindering the locking up of the pavers from the "bottom side".

I'm teaching an ICPI certification class on Oct. 7 and 8 in Phoenix. If you want to attend let me know and I'll send you a registration form.

Peace,

Rex

[Stonehenge]

You paying for airfare? Heck, I'll go too!!

[site]

Find a paver persuader to knock your bond lines straight after. It's a sledgehammer sized deadblow hammer. Use that and a 2x4 for straight lines. Check your 4' level. Most paver products are 2 3/8" thick- exactly the width of your level. That will help out around steps and driveways. We buy cheap levels, and use them for minor screeding in transition areas. Lastly, get out the 4' grade rake, and throw away your short screedboards. It's nice to stand up, and faster too. We would do the job in one day with three guysfor a little over 2k. Forgetting to pre-order the paver materials and have them delivered would be the potential slowdown.

[Stonehenge]

It's funny how you get caught up in the daya to day and not think of simple ideas to make the job go faster. I love the 4' rake idea!! Or I may attach a handle to a screed board at an angle.

I have an older model paver persuader...my aim stinks when using the new ones, and they leave black marks on the pavers...

[Rex Mann]

"click and drop" helps us keep bond lines straight. What are the longest unbroken bond lines you run....say across a 25 foot wide project?

Peace,

Rex

[jwholden]

Rex,

Thanks for the info. I have heard you mention what ICPI certification classes teach around this and other sites and see the value of going. I have a degree in Ornametal Horticulture where I learned the why of plants and planting. A degree in Brick Paving would boost my knowledge base as well, and knowledge is power!

[jwholden]

Jeff,

The airlines are hurtin for business these days. Perhaps we should get Rex to give a Ground Trades ICPI course somewhere in the middle of the country during the winter.

I'm especially interested in the tips and tricks part of the presentation.

[Stonehenge]

The ICPI certification, if I recall, comes after a one-day session and test. Certainly great info, but not a degree's worth.

I would recommend reading AASHTO's guide to the design of pavement structures, but it has got to be the least interesting text book out there.

You know who might help us in our quest for hardscape knowledge? One of our members here, County Materials. They are a local mfg for me, making pavers and SRW's all over Wisconsin. They make a quality product. Maybe they can give us a brief picture of how pavers and block are made, how many are made at a time, etc.

I hope to get a tour of a Unilock plant this spring as well.

[jwholden]

When I bought a backhoe for my 763 two years ago I figured this was the way to go when excavating for paver walks. I had a 60 and 66" bucket but got rid of the 60" because I never used it. As I ponder how to make better time on these jobs it has occorred to me that was a bad idea.:bangin:

The backhoe needs a lot more cleanup of the bottom of the trench and with the bucket on the skidsteer I can scoop and carry in one motion. I can have my helpers clean the sides of the trench and by the steps and this should prevent me from going crazy deep when excavating.

Do the vets prefer to excavate with the skid steer?

[diginahole]

The walkway you posted here would have been dug out with the skidsteer bucket. I have two buckets as well but mine are both 48" wide, one has teeth the other smooth. I use the teeth for digging and the smooth to clean out the dregs. Shovels and spades square up the edges. To me its a no brainer, the skidsteer can dig and transport far faster than a backhoe. I plan to add a mini-x in the future for getting into tight back yards. It would be used to excavate and load wheel barrows so we get spoils out without excessive lawn damage. Once in and once out with a Mini-x is much better than the 50 trips with a skidsteer.

Rex asked about the length of unbroken bond lines. In random patterns I like to keep them to 5-6 units. Using Unilock's Stonehenge this can translate to 6' long unbroken lines. We rely on edge restraints and polymeric jointing sand to offset this structural flaw.

This job was the first I had my guys lay unsupervised. It has a few long lines in it and a few stacked shapes but overall I thing they did a nice job. Random patterns require a bit of learning to avoid the many situations that lead to long lines and stacked shapes and my guys are getting much better as they gain more experience. The lines are very straight and they didn't even use a string for this small project. I relate that to the base prep, flat bases produce straight bond lines.

[diginahole]

Jeff,

Is Unilock opening a plant in Wisconsin?

[Stonehenge]

No - but they have a biggie in Chicago, and I go there every winter/spring for the Mid Am trade show.

Digin - I really like the look of the multiple soldier border. Your peops did some nice work!!

We only use one 72" bucket, but we have a bolt-on tooth bar, which we use for excavations like this. With the smooth bucket you either get nothing or you get 15" of soil when excavating. The tooth bar helps you control the depth of the dig much better.

[diginahole]

Agreed... teeth help a lot controlling depth of cut. I have a bolt on tooth bar that I've never used. It came with a used smooth bucket that got thrown into the deal when I bought my first skidsteer. I always figured it was quicker to change buckets than bolting on the tooth bar and would also help keep my smooth bucket straighter.

[Stonehenge]

Yeah, not to mention your tooth bar straighter.....

I had my guys working on a paver project, so I took the skid steer to do some grading work. Was in a hurry, only had one bolt/nut to bolt on the tooth bar, couldn't find the other, didn't want to take the 1 hour it'd take to get one. Knowing it was always really hard to take off once soil had packed itself around the tooth bar, I used the one bolt on one side and called it good.

After about 2 hours I was driving forward, dumping shredded topsoil low to the ground, and the unsecured end of the toothbar came off. My forward momentum and temporary blindness from the soil saw me drive another 3-4 feet, turning the straight toothbar into a rather crooked one, as the free end caught the ground and stopped, while the secured end kept moving with me.

Thankfully, a few passes with the skid steer and about 20 minutes with a sledgehammer and the toothbar was straight enough to re-attach.

[Rex Mann]

We had a 36 inch bucket with teeth, which was custom made. It was used for walkways. It worked pretty well. After we got the Mini-x, that 36" bucket just sat around. The bucket was also made to be level when it was 4" lower then the tires. This was to avoid the washboard effect.

ICPI class is two days long. And, it certainly is will not answer every question you have about pavers. However, it will dispell allot of "old wives tales" about some of the methods currently used. It is designed as an overview.

I learn things about pavers in allot of ways. Here, on this board, talking with other installers, visting other installers job sites, talking with paving stone sales reps; talking with soil engineers, attending ICPI classes, manufactures seminars, trade shows and trade magazines.

As I learn more about my industy, I understand that I do not know all there is to know. There are many many many people I look toward as mentors and teachers. As I learn, I try to pass on that invaluable information. I want to see this industry progress. Progress through eucation brings respect from other industry communitites.

Peace,

Rex

[scl]

I have a tooth bucket and a smooth for my 753. Still thinking about getting a bolt on due to its a pain to carry two buckets around, plus a set of forks and whatever else. Use the skid loader exclusively for digging walks and patios as I haven't found the backhoe to work out all that well. That 60" bucket on the skid is just right. And Jeff, if you get an ICPI going up by you, let me know. I'd probably come up if you promised to burn some fish :cool:

[jwholden]

I'm onto my next walk after the job of the week post. I used ONE chalk line to lay the pavers out from the front steps and another heading down the walk. I did not use any string lines except the one seen to check my lines at the end of the day.

I see I have linear bond lines that I have to correct.

We laid this amount of pavers from 3:00 to about 5:30. I had the guys only bring me the pavers that I would use. I tried not to be 'perfect' figuring I could fix it at the end.

How does it look?

:)

[jwholden]

Oops, the picture.

[jwholden]

While I've got the vets watching I could use some more base prep tips. I think I'm going overboard but it takes me forever!!!

I used the notched board trick for along the drive and set string lines along the walk to set my grade. I set cast iron pipe in the base and screeded it 3 times to get a darn flat base.

I seem to suffer from diggus too muchis and would love any suggestions on what I can to to stop this madness. I understand that some recommend digging by hand but would prefer not to go that route in the rocky new england soil.

Thanks for all the help!!!

John :)

[Paul]

JW; you do know how to use grade stakes?

[Stonehenge]

Yep - set some stakes, stretch a string, mark string w/ duct tape.

Pull down string, excavate, re-check w/ string on stakes at previous duct tape marks. If using sidsteer, start by taking out a few inches, then just shave a little at a time, instead of all9-10" in one pass.

[Paul]

One other quick hint, use a can of marking paint on the bucket to mark out your depth of cut about 2" less than you want to cut out. We used this for new operators.

[jwholden]

Yes, I use the grade stakes and string. However, diggus too muchis seems to come irregardless.

I'll try the painted bucket trick for new, or over zealous, operators. I think shaving a little at a time, and not the whole ball of wax, should keep me under control as well.

I tried to dig this with my 66" bucket with no teeth. I had to switch to the backhoe because my bucket was bouncing off the taters instead of digging. If I stay in the paver business I will be getting a 60" bucket with teeth for digging.

Thanks guys. And keep 'em coming! :)

[Stonehenge]

Hey, that's a good hint. We'll have to try that one. :D

JW, where the pavers meet the steps in that pic - is there some sort of solid restraint ? I notice the pavers aren't lipping up on the steps, so I wondered what was keeping the pavers from migrating that way.

[Paul]

Don't go buying a new bucket, just get measured for a tooth bar, they run about $150 to $200 much easier to afford than a new bucket

[Stonehenge]

My tooth bar was closer to $400, if I recall correctly, but even so, bolt on is lighter than 2 buckets, easier cartage, and still cheaper. Only one piece of advice with a bolt-on: Always clean the bolt with a wire brush before you try to take the toothbar off. Otherwise, bring along a metal blade for your cutoff saw to cut the bolts off. :rrr:

[PSUscaper]

Hello,

For a walkway like that, base prep shouldn't be too complicated.

I excavate, put in my base, and level it by eye.

Then, lay my pipes in preparation for screeding. When I lay the screed pipes, i check the base for any ups and downs. For example, the pipes will have a large gap in one area where there is a low, or be higher on one side if there is a high.

For slopes, I use shorter pipes to sort of 'work' the grade.

Another note. Not sure if you are or are not.....but if you are going to do the landscaping here (meaning the planting bed by between the house and the walk, and soil for the lawn on the other side, may I suggest setting this work up while you excavate out the walk.

In previous posts, I remember you having a 'sloppy' work site, though you said the homeowner wanted the dirt left there. I have found it is much, much easier to prep all your planting areas (especially the one between the house and walk) during intial walk excavation.

It may not seem like a problem now, but have to remove all that dirt, or add dirt, to that area between the walk and house is a pain in the but. You can't drive across your new walk now, and if your machine is small, can't dump across it.

Also, by setting up the grades for the lawn/planting areas during excavation, you will set up the grade for the new walk at the same time.

Often, I see guys do what you have done and then realize the walk is not at the correct grade in retrospect to finish grade of the lawn.

I often see guys end up with 'raised' planting beds between the house and walk that are more like small mountains.

I would focus on keeping the site cleaner as you work. Dig dirt out, take dirt away. Its simple.

I find that having a clean area is also much, much more relaxing to work in. I hate having the guys set pavers around a worksite like the one you have........the stacks are always falling over, then they fall into you nicely screeded bed.....then dirt falls into the screeded bed.....then, when you go to put the edge restraint in you are bumping into piles of dirt.....etc. etc. etc.

Though this is a new construction, and I understand the overall site is probably a disaster area. However, I will strongly suggest working a little bit neater as I believe it saves you money in the end.

And don't you hate 'non-banded' pavers when it comes to ordering.......as I see in the picture.....it looks like quite a stack of pavers left over. That is one of my biggest problems with all these paver manufactures......its either 130 sq ft or 260 sq feet.....and all you need is 140!!!! It use to be so simple, order the sq footage you need, and then the full pallets and a few bands would arive..........it seems those days are coming to an end.....and even worse.......all the suppliers are coming up with this 'we won't break a pallet open for you' mentallity even though you just bought 50 pallets from them the other month.


steve

[PSUscaper]

oh ya,

one more note on base prep.......just for the hell of it!

Being this is a new construction, and seeing in the picture that it looks like the front foudation was all back fill, how well do you think this walkway is going to hold up during the first few years?

That's always been a big question I ask myself. I mean, unless you dig down to virgin soil, your building on fill, and god only knows what else (ie....stumps, 2x4's, that foam insulation that comes in sheets, drywall, paint cans, and let us not forget empty coke cans and 8oz 'bud bunnies' cans,(why does it seem like these small cans are the chosen size of house builders????)


steve

[jwholden]

Bobcat 'Bucket Bite' can be bolted on to my 68" bucket for 325, after I drill two 3/4" holes. I left it at the dealer because I knew I wouldn't be drilling those holes before this job. But hey, they said they would throw in the Bucket Bite free if I bought a new machine.

I put some solid cinder blocks under the steps to hold them up, other than that I had the guys sweep a bunch of sand under them to minimize movement. My edging isn't reversible so I took the easy way out!

That's not new construction, they just finished an addition to the left of the front door. I just finished ripping out the original landscape. I find my paver jobs always end up looking like a battle zone. I spread 4 1/2 yards of compost in the beds before we dug so I could run a tiller through after the walk was done. A little shovel work and a few more yards of soil and I'll have the beds.

I laid the pavers along the drive after using the notched board trick and they came out great with much less thinking time. I also cut my soldier course along the drive 1/4" heavy and discovered that sand can fix many mistakes!

The shot you see is after I loaded about 12 yards of excavated soil into the triaxle that brought the process. That didn't help the lawn at all!

The job is coming out awesome and none of you will have any problem with the end result. However, I wouldn't get the job as foreman for any of you based on my times on these jobs. But I'm getting better!

Final note, when I cut the soldier course today I was amazed at how much concrete dust I kicked up. It was ALL OVER the place. Holy cow. That stuff is nasty!

[PSUscaper]

Be sure to tell the client to close all the windows...........believe me.......you don't want to know what trouble it causes!

steve

[scl]

Steve, I know what kind of trouble it causes, ooh ooh!

[Stonehenge]

Yeah.....me, too. I had a woman in tears after I left a coating of brick dust on the interior of her new Ford Explorer that was parked inside the garage (we were installing a front walk).

I also had a client run some errands while we were working, and when he returned he bolted in the backyard wanting to know if everything was OK, because he thought he saw smoke from a fire....turned out to just be our guys cutting his pavers. :blush:

The thing I worry about with the pavers only having some loose sand holding them in where they meet the step is, sand doesn't do a good job as an edge restraint. What we like to do is prep so that 1/2" of the pavers lips up on the riser of the step - that riser then serves as the edge restraint. Another option is to install edge restraint beforehand, just inside the riser (but good luck with this method - pretty darned hard to install the spikes). Just my $.02

And be sure that when cutting dry you provide your guys with respirators:

[Tim]

I like to wet saw when possible. Some times, we let guys that were short on hours, do this on Saturdays (if I can trust them) if the home owner doesn't mind. this gives the base time to dry out before we work it. We also try to saw in the rain. We spray over a string line laid where we plan to snap chalk lines, with clear marker spray. Then snap our WHITE chalk lines over this. then spray the clear back over it. I hate dry sawing for lots of reasons. Concrete dust is hard on equipment, employees, and terrible to try to clean up.

JW, I also would suggest you do not bury your cast iron screed pipes in the grade for striking. You could place my screed pipes well outside of your screeding area, and use the notched boards with them. This will save you an entire process.

[jwholden]

We wrapped up the job today. It came out great!

I installed this walk using ONE chalk line to keep my pavers straight and didn't go nuts checking my lines. I did end up with some long bond lines. :(

I used the notched board trick at the drive and cut it to leave the pavers a little high by the drive. Can you see how they are proud?

Overall, I'm getting quicker but still have a way to go.

Thanks to all for your help!

[diginahole]

You're right John, it does look great.:D
I find random patterns are more forgiving with the bond lines or at least less obvious than straight patterns. I like to keep the joint at the asphalt a little proud too. It helps make up for irregularities in the asphalt.

Originally posted by Stonehenge
....And be sure that when cutting dry you provide your guys with respirators:

Let's not forget hearing protection and saftey glasses.;)

[jwholden]

It's been a while since I've seen a photo post so I thought I'd revive this thread. This is the first paver walk we did this year. It is also my first paver walk installed strictly to ICPI codes.

I am noticing I have a very specific style to my walks...atleast I mix up the colors once in a while.

Anyway, enjoy!

[Stonehenge]

Good idea - here's one we finished a day or so ago:

[PSUscaper]

here's one I did a few weeks.............

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

Where the hek did the walk go????????

IN FACT!!!

Where the hek did the house go??????

[Bill Schwab]

Every company I know who used stone dust, or screenings has stopped because it produced lots more efflouressence than with sand. I like the way it packs, just not fond of the white salty stuff.

[agla]

Here in New England the stone dust is granite. There is no calcium in it, so we don't get the salty stuff out of it. The pavers themselves are a different story.

Stone dust, 4-6" deep with no gravel below it, has been used for clay brick and bluestone walks in my area as long as I can remember with no negative consequences.

We have only been seeing bigger aggregate with sand on top since the "paver revolution" and the standards that came with it. Now you will find younger people here that will insist that you can't do that while they are standing on a perfect 30 year old clay brick walkway.

My concern with sand over 3/4" is that the fines will work there way into the 3/4" as time goes on. If it is down there, than it is no longer on top. If it is no longer on top, what happens to the grade of the walk?

I see drainage leaching pits under pavement cause sinking of pavement over them for that very reason. Our office policy is never to put a leach pit under pavement.

[VoodooChile]

I've been visiting the ICPI site a lot in preperation for my first ever paver patio next week, and read this about stone dust:Masonry sand for mortar should never be used for bedding, nor should limestone screenings or stone dust. The bedding sand should have symmetrical particles, generally sharp, washed, with no foreign material. Waste screenings or stone dust should not be used, as they often do not compact uniformly and can inhibit lateral drainage of moisture in the bedding sand. Full page found here (http://www.icpi.org/techspecs/index.cfm?id=13&tech=02)
Thanks for confusing me guys!:woot:

And hey, stupid ? #1, what's a "bond line"?

[agla]

I live on a sand bar, so lateral drainage is rarely an issue. I can definitely see that it would make a hude difference in other soils.

[Rex Mann]

Alga,

It is 3/4 minus that should be used with 5-12% fines, not 3/4 clean aggregate. After compaction, the surface is then closed or smooth. The concrete sand can not migrate down.

A bond line is the line the pavers make when you lay a square pattern whether it is a running or a random pattern.

Bond quality or more commonly called line quality is + or - 1/2-inch over 50 liner feet.

Peace,

Rex



PHOENIXPAVERS.COM (http://phoenixpavers.com)

[Stonehenge]

Voodoo - so you know, I disagree with a few of the recommendations of the ICPI, Rex's volume of knowledge notwithstanding. Depending on the size of the screenings, for pedestrian pavements, I've found it to be superior to the sand method.

Penn - is that a reverse-engineered landscape? Maybe it'll catch on... ;)

[VoodooChile]

So do I understand correctly that on poorly draining soils stone dust used instead of sand could cause pavers to float in standing water?

And the more I read that ICPI quote the less sense it makes. "Lateral drainage" is drainage horizontally, which would be effected by the nature and saturation of adjacent soils, not the nature of the aggregate below the bedding sand...and the importance of lateral drainage would depend on the permeability of the aggregate base.

Ultimately, the goal would be a perfectly compacted aggregate base, that drains water but does not allow the migration of bedding sand.

Once again :woot: