Numbering Cuts

[BJR]

Who out there actually numbers their cuts for paving?

Most contractors here still do it. Waste of time.

There is a better and quicker way.

[Stonehenge]

Numbering their cuts?

The only time we've ever numbered our cuts was when it started raining heavily. We numbered the bottom of the marked pavers and brought them back to the shop to cut, then installed them later, when it wasn't raining.

[jwholden]

Number each brick so you remember where to put it back? Is that what you mean?

[Stonehenge]

For me, yeah. If we take 150 or so brick back to be cut, we'd never remember which went where. I'm not sure it that's what BJR meant.

[BJR]

That's right. Over here most contractors number each cut on the side so that they know which order they bo back in.

We just stack in piles of 8 and put 4 piles in a barrow. When you cut them the bottom brick of the first pile you put in the barrow becomes the top brick of the back pile. This way they go back in order.

Sounds like you guys don't number your cuts.

[Stonehenge]

Nope. For the most part we mark and cut them where they lay. Saves all kinds of time.

[dan deutekom]

I assume BJR is using a tub saw instead of a cutoff saw.

[Stonehenge]

I would assume so, too.

Before we started cutting them where they lay, that's what we did. I figured his follow up question was going to be "Why don't you guys number your pavers? Doesn't it take a long time to mark and cut each one?"

[jwholden]

I know of some guys around here who have a marker and a cutter if there are a lot of cuts to make. One guy marks the brick and puts an x on the waste side, and the "schlepper" makes the trips to the saw.

I have done this a couple times when trying teach someone how to use the chopsaw or have a body with nothing else to do.

[diginahole]

Tight inside curves often need to be 'one at a timed'. One guy brings brick to the sawyer. He places bricks in the same orientation for every cut so the waste is always on the same side. The sawyer never has to put the saw down just kick the waste to the side. Once the rythym is established it goes quite quick. All cuts are premarked in place with the saw, no need to mark the waste side, the carrier puts his thumb on the good side as he picks it up so he doesn't forget on the way to the sawyer. This is how I did it in the old days with the tub saw and how we do it now with the quick cut. Using two bodies more than doubles (probably triples) the efficiency of one guy.

[Stonehenge]

Really? I may beg to differ on that one. When I saw two guys cutting brick with a tub saw, the first guy marked the brick and walked it to the saw operator. While the cut was being made, the 'marker' stood and waited. After the cut was made, the 'saw man' waited for the 'marker' to place that brick, mark another, and bring it to him.

From that was coined my phrase - 'Don't make a one-man-job a two-man-job.' Cut for cut it may go quicker, but give 2 guys 2 saws and I think the job will get done much quicker than 2 guys and one saw.

And I go nuts if I see a guy waiting for a tub saw because he doesn't want to make an easy cut with the cutoff saw. Or likes one tub saw more than another. Just ask Billy 3 Fingers how I feel about that.... :rrr:

[Stonehenge]

For those that use tub saws - do you use a w/b right beside it? One of my guys had that idea a few years ago. Saves all kinds of time.

[diginahole]

When I used a tub saw the wheelbarrow was always beside it. No time in my system to put the waste into the wheelbarrow when they are cut with the cut off, just kick 'em to the side and get 'em when we are done.

I would also freak if one guy was standing still watching the other cut. He is expected to place the cut brick back and bring the next as the cut is being made. It saves time, the saw barley ever even idles down. Keep in mind the bricks have already been marked. I remember the first time I taught it this year and it started off as you described. It didn't take long for it to become clear that this system is all about efficiency. You seem to have to talk a little louder when the saw is going ya know.

[BJR]

Hardly anyone here uses cut off saws to cut pavers. I gather that you would have to lay quite a way past the cut edge so that the pavers to be cut were held tight by the outside pavers.

Here we lay just what is needed. Mark the pavers and pick them up in order into piles of 8. These piles are placed in order in a wheel barrow 4 at a time. This is wheeled to the saw and one man cuts the pavers and places them in another barrow beside him. Meanwhile the marker is marking more cuts. When the man on the saw is finished his cuts he swaps the barrow with the cuts for a barrow with more marked pavers. The marker then puts the cut pavers in place, loads more marked pavers into barrow and keeps marking.

I have tried to cut pavers whilst in place, but the water from the cut off saw made too much mess. I also had to lay too far out past the cut edge to hold the pavers to be cut.

I assume that you might cut dry, meaning no water. It is against our environmental regulations to cut dry.

[dan deutekom]

I have found that I could have 2 guys marking and running brick while the sawer just cuts. Saw never stops and no one is standing around.

[Rex Mann]

We use 2 wheelbarrows, one on each side. We place a wide board on the right one. The schelleper places his pile of pavers on the board. He then goes and marks or retrieves more pavers. Therefore, we don't-at least most of the time- have a guy standing around waiting on cuts.

Peace,

Rex

[Stonehenge]

BJR, you're right. We do cut dry. I never liked how the silt of the cut paver ended up in the pores of the paver. We gear up with respirators and away we go.

Even with a tub saw, if you were to use the saw cart like the one on our saw here: http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422 , the wheelbarrow might not be necessary. Or maybe less necessary.

There is a way to cut the pavers without laying too far beyond what's needed, but you have to cut in the right direction and use your feet to help hold things in place.

[BJR]

We have to use water on the tub saw too. So it is set up somewhere where the mess doesn't matter.

[PSUscaper]

My two cents.....

First of all, if your not using the cutoff saw to cut pavers while they are in place, you are going too slow. With a experienced cutter, you can have results just as good as indvidually marking and cutting with a tub saw. As for waste created.....not a issue as the time saved greatly outweighs the cost of a few more bricks.

As for the 'mark, carry, and cut' method......not a big fan. On any job where many cuts are needed that the cutoff can't do, two saws are set up immediately. I even get three saws if necessary.
Over the years, I've always noticed that the cutter can't keep up with the marker and carrier. That's a fact. Also, I laugh because I see guys set a tub saw up on one side of the lawn, and then as they move, continue to walk farther and farther each time.................either set two saws up(one on each side) or move it after you get so far....it literally takes 1 min to move the saw and tub.

Also, I never feel that a 'dedicated' cutter is 100% insinc with the marker. I mean, you always get a cut that needs a 'little bit more' on the one end, or a full brick that needs a 'hair' off a corner. Only the guy marking knows this, and the cutter ends up cutting about 3 times to get it right.

I firmly believe that for every man marking there should be a saw.

steve

[BJR]

You guys are lucky that you are allowed to cut dry.

As for 3 saws. Over here they cost around $1600 to buy and blades start at $300 each. To hire is app $180/day with blade. A big investment if you don't do much paving. Partner saws are around $1400 each plus blades.

A Bobcat 753 is around $55,000. The ASV RC30 I purchased was $55,000 new. I believe, much dearer than you pay in the States.

[Stonehenge]

$1600 AUS for a tub saw? I just checked conversion rates, and approx. $1.5 AUS = $1 US. That means your tub saws are around $1066 US. That's a steal!!

The two tub saws we run were about the same price. Gas, 5 hp Honda engine, runs a 14" blade, w/ water pump. Cost is around $2,000 US ($3,000 AUS), plus blade (depending on where you shop, anywhere from $150-450 US).

The Partner saws, depending on the model, sound like they are roughly in line with our prices here. A new K700 will run $750-850 US ($1125 - $1275 AUS), plus blade.

The saws are a good sized investment, but I think they pay for themselves in increased productivity.

I will never forget the day I went to go buy our second tub saw. This was when I was running a single 5 man crew. I left the jobsite, was gone about 2 hours picking up the new saw. When I returned to the jobsite, I saw one guy cutting pavers, one guy piecing one in he just cut. The other three were standing in line behind the guy cutting. I just about lost my mind. :blowup:

I can't speak for a Bobcat price, other than $55,000 AUS translates to about $36,700 US. Not sure if that is out of line for that model or not. I'm thinking it might be for US prices.

[dan deutekom]

Originally posted by pennscapes
My two cents.....

First of all, if your not using the cutoff saw to cut pavers while they are in place, you are going too slow. With a experienced cutter, you can have results just as good as indvidually marking and cutting with a tub saw. As for waste created.....not a issue as the time saved greatly outweighs the cost of a few more bricks.

steve
Agree 100%

But I have found in situations where you do have to remove a lot of stones for cutting the cutter can be insync with the markers, but the crew has to have worked together for a while so that they come up with their own standards for marking and cutting. We only do this if we have a lot of marking and cutting to do. This dosn't work for walls and coping then each guy needs a dedicated saw.

[diginahole]

Everyone seems to be talking about guys marking individual stones, this seems very odd to me. Other than the job I just completed we use a soldier around everything so we don't have to mark each brick one at a time. This was the first time in a verrrry long time that this has come up. Does everyone else come across situations where it is necessary to mark bricks one at a time a lot?

[Stonehenge]

Only in places where we have to lay a soldier course before the field, or when we aren't using a soldier course along a structure, or in among some stones or other obstacles.

Otherwise, we lay the field, mark it and buzz it.

[jwholden]

In my efforts to be more productive this year I have started putting the soldier course around everything as well. I used to go on a saturday and cut the bricks where the walk meets the drive one at a time as well as work of curves. Now I just lay them close enough to give me my one brick width, measure twice, mark and zoom.

This is the method I used in the job of the week.

This has shaved some time off for me and I think it looks better!:cool:

[dan deutekom]

It is very rare for this to happen. Usually happens around weird shaped obstacles or if not using a soldier course.

[BJR]

The only time I needed 2 saws was when I was paving large scale projects. Now we only need one. I don't believe that I am loosing any productivity by having only One. No one is pepk waiting for the saw. There is always edging, marking and spreading sand.