Has this ever happened to you?

[jwholden]

When we were working on the job of the week I left the guys to lay the soldier course after I cut the edge. They had done this before and I figured it would be done the same as last time (though 'last time' I had 3/4 of a pallet too many pavers and this time I was three rows short). We are using a paver with five different sizes and I said not to use the long skinny ones where the walk curves because they won't flow with the curves.

I got busy cutting farther down the walk figuring that this was a pretty straightforward task. When I walked to the pile and grabbed some I got a dirty look. I went over to see what the look was about and saw he had been alternating two different paver sizes continuously. I can't say I exploded but I'm sure he saw the look of disappointment in my eyes.

Needless to say I told him to mix it up and make it more random sizes so we don't have to do the entire edge that way. He seemed baffled and then mixed it up with the other sizes.

When I started laying the middle of the walk farther down I asked for some random size pavers. However, all that was left was about 1 1/2 rows of one square size. Why the heck wouldn't he have used more of the square sizes in the edging. I just don't understand. :angry:

One part of employees that I am always frustrated with, though I know it's just part of the territory, is that these mistakes end up making the job take 3x longer than it should. Once to explain how to do it (though I didn't bother to explain again at the start of this job because I thought he already got it), once to do it wrong, once to explain how to do it right, and once to do it right again.

Is this kind of stuff common when training or perhaps I am under training? :huh:

[dan deutekom]

Maybe I am missing something here or I am about to learn something new but I thought a soldier course always used just one size of paver.

As far as training is concerned I find it takes at least 2 explanations and 3 supervisions with partial explanations for something to really sink in.

[jwholden]

Um, sailor course.

[Stonehenge]

Yup. Same here.

[Rex Mann]

JW,

With so many styles of pavers and different design options it is difficult to train employees how to do seemingly simple tasks. Soldier or Sailor course. Random, alternating or uniform for the pattern. I explain why we are doing it like this and also why we are not doing it a certain way. Then I keep an eye on them. I do not make it obvious, but keep it low profile. I also try to explain why we are doing a sailor or soldier. Form follows function or something like that.

Peace,

Rex

[Paul]

Rex is right with so many different pavers and ways to install them you need to have something written down for them to refresh their memory. A small sketch might be the way for them to understand. We work off drawing all the time and the foreman has the pattern and edge courses on a separate sheet of paper that way he knows what is happening at each part of the job.

[jwholden]

Rex,

In your part of the country do you work with many spanish speaking employees? My guys speak spanish first and english second and I suspect that our different cultures and my spanish get in the way at times. How do you overcome this obstacle?

I think the guys get about 50 % of what I say from my four semesters of spanish in school. However, every barrio del mundo tiene un differente estilo de la lengua. I'm happy that the new guy is teaching me some of the slang sayings like

Como vas
si o que
weedediendo - I'm convinced these guys make the language up as they go, especially when I hear this one!

[jwholden]

I always do keep an eye on the guys, sometimes not as low profile as I should be. This was one day I thought I'd loosen the reigns and let them go with it.

When I catch myself giving the guys too many nastly looks I try to spend some time explaining something so I'm sure we are all on the same page.

Don't know if it's my fear of public speaking or just general sense of beeing in a rush but I suspect I need to slow down the explanations sometimes. Again, perhaps I take some things a little too for granted.

[Stonehenge]

Weedediendo

Wha?

I'm no linguist, but I studied Spanish awhile in college. Is that 'weeding'?

[Rex Mann]

My guys Speak Very Little English. And, I only have "jobsite" Spanish skills. My Belgard rep is bilingual, English & Spanish and a friend of mine, who does pavers is from Mexico and is bilingual. Whenever I have a complex idea to convey and can not accomplish it I call them and have them do it.

A sidebar: It is important to show a sense of urgency as the crew leader/foreman. However, the difficult part to that is urgency can be confused with rushing around.

Peace,

Rex

[jwholden]

Weedediendo = Weed wacking :huh:

[jwholden]

Rex,

Whenever I make a mistake that can somehow be attributed to rushing around, as opposed to standing around with my finger up my ___. I hear the guys say priza priza priza (rush, rush, rush). I am big on keeping the jobsite organized and try to get them to keep the tools in one or two areas as opposed to all over the place. I still get caught organizing the tools a couple times a day.

One thing these fellahs have taught me is that steady is better than rushed. They keep going all day where I try to get it all done in the morning and pay in the afternoon. My current employees also have more common sense than those of the past. Finally, attendance isn't a big issue, I'm confident the guys will come back tommorrow (This used to not be a given).

[scott C]

Its funny, I was talking to a supplier on Monday about how baffliing it is when an employee can do an awesome job one day, come back into work 12 hours later and completely forget how he did the same job the day before.

BTW in my eyes slow and steasy wins the race.

[LerchBros]

I agree with Rex on the different styles and patterns issue. We are constantly selling the Belgard Bergerac 3pc. system. It is supposed to go in a random pattern. Every job has been laid the same, until this year. One of the laborers got the bright idea to make a pattern by laying a large paver, medium, and small in a line, kind of like a running bond. After I saw 200 sq. ft. installed I almost shot the foreman, who isn't the brightest and reemed out the crew in my best spanglish. The excuse was, you wanted it done faster, this is a faster way of doing it. I had to gently remind them who was the boss and not to mention the one who trained them. I told them that if I thought there was a faster way to lay a pattern, I would have tried it. Since then they are asking more questions, many are the same but at least they are thinking. You got to wonder what goes through their heads sometimes.

[jwholden]

We cut the second half of the walk today and I went over everything again at a nice easy pace. The guys have gone the other way now and if they see alternating pavers for more than two units they think something is wrong. I tried to explain that it's ok for a little bit of the edge, just now the whole thing.

I get a sense that the guys want to learn this stuff and I know they are impressed by our final product. I think it would be difficult to convince them they could do this themselves someday, as they have watched me sweat the details on the projects.

They've almost got the soldier course down and perhaps I'll let them do some fill if we have time on the next project. Baby steps!

One concept that I have a hard time conveying to the guys is that it should be done right but staring at it for 10 minutes isn't going to make it any better. Though they probably picked up this habit from watching me ponder the job, I tend to stare as well. I just take for granted doing the things that they still have to think about.

Thanks for the great input all. :)

[PSUscaper]

The only real solution to this problem is either higher another head foremen with years and years of experience, or be on the job all the time.

Lunch doesn't exist for this sole reason anymore. I find myself setting up the next step of the project at lunch time because I know it will be above my labor's heads and they will be just standing around watching me after lunch if I don't do it then.

I was thinking about this subject a lot today. We are working on a retaining wall, and a few days ago we did the base prep.

Setting up straight level runs is no problem for my guys. Its easy, you can run a string line to follow and all the blocks are laid level. The leveling part takes time, but the guys catch on.

The problem is when you come across any kind of change......and I mean any.

For instance, the wall ran straight for about 30 ft, and then curved for the remaining 30 ft.............during the turn, the wall also had a grade change and needed to be step up.

This is where they lost it.......It's almost like they learn to do one thing and then try to keep doing it even though it has to be changed.

They just can't think things out..... they don't understand that you can't run a line around a curve to follow......you have to just 'feel' it out. Basically, that means I have to adjust everyblock so that when it goes around the turn, it has a nice even flow.....something that goes waaaaaaaaaaay above their heads. They lay about three blocks and realize their angle is wrong, and then go ahead and start digging because they think the trench is wrong! If they don't dig, they abruptly shoot one of the blocks so it goes back on course, but causes a 'zig' in the curve. And then there's the issue with the designed set block on the block and the step up and the curve...............If someone can write instructions on how the setback effects your curves while stepping up the base and have it so the everday joe can understand it.......they will have a buyer right here.

There is just a wealth of knowledge that, perhaps, as a experienced installer, you overlook. The problem is conveying all that knowledge to your installers.

My main concern is first deciding on whether or not the employee actually has the mental ability to learn. The main thing is that there IS NO TEXT BOOK method for doing what we do.....things change, and changes have to be made.

The ability to think things through has to be possesed by the person you are hoping to train. I am to the point now where I believe the crew I currently have does not posses these 'mental tools' to truly take it to the next level. I know that I am going to have to higher a more 'mentally' skilled person to teach.

You can't draw blood from a stone. I hate to say it, but truly, there are a LOT of stones out there at this point.

steve

[jwholden]

Another thing I notice with my newer guy is that he is shy to ask the boss how to do something, prefering to ask the other member of the crew that speaks spanish better. I like to see my longer term employee teaching the new guy the way it's done. Though I alos see him explaining concepts that I know he doesn't yet grasp. I suspect I may tell the new guy not to be afraid to ask me questions, thereby avoiding the dilution down the chain.

I'm sure we've all dealt with these type situations and it's nice to have a place like this where we can share them!

[Paul]

I understand on how you feel about laying out the project. But here are a couple of tricks that worked for me.

Curves: Use radius points and distances, when you lay out your wall drive hubs in at the radius-es that you want the wall to follow, mark on the hub what the radius is (ie:16'R)

Grade changes: Again use a stake with the base level marked on it at that starting point. This can work for both raising and lowering the wall. I would mark it with the grade change + or - one block. On multiple grade changes just use more stakes set were the grade changes are to be made.

Now I know you'll all tell me that it might not work out every time but you'd be surprised on how quickly they can pick up on it.

Yes even I make mistakes........ the other day I lay ed out a playground wall and miss read the radius-es and used the ones for the concrete not the wall and had to re-excavate a wall, costing us about 2 hrs. My excuse was I was pulling measurements from 500' away. LOL :cry:

[Pelican]

Can someone explain the sailor course to me? Thanks!

[Paul]

Sailors always are laying down on the job, while soldiers are at attention.

Ok maybe that was a bit of a stretch. A sailor course is the edge pattern were the long side of ther pavers run parallel to the edge. A soldier course the short side runs parallel to the edge.

Soldier course looks like this llllllllllllllllllll
Sailor course looks like this _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

[Pelican]

Got it. Thanks!

[Carlita]

I see alot of you that are posting on this subject are either running the job yourselves and have no one you can trust to run the jobs for you?

Education is the key! You need to pass on your ideas and experience so you as owners can spend more time working on the company than in the company.

I do not know how your workforce is broke down, but Hispanics make up 85% of our workforce and we were at the same point where some of you may be now. We just took the time to train key individuals and let them know that mistakes are o.k. as long as you learn from them. Our team leaders are also always teaching their assistant team leaders to do all tasks so they may lead the team when the team leader is out or for future crews.

We also provide English classes to help the communication between us.

[site]

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problem. Well trained employees seem to vanish quickly too. I agree with Jwolden- baby steps. Every day I try to find the proper sized task for each employee that he-she can take credit for. If they succeed they get a bigger challenge the next time. If they fail repeatedly they lose their jobs. Some run entire jobs, others run wheelbarrows.

[jwholden]

Carlita,

I'm putting good money on you being bilingual!

One concept that I read about in one of the trade magazines is that some people just don't want to do everything and are happy doing the same thing every day. Each person has a special button that they would like to have pushed. The fellah that's been with me for five years doesn't seek to be the foreman, or mayordomo, of other men. He seeks to earn a good living working for a boss who doesn't yell at him all day. (He'd probably prefer to work for a guy who doesn't throw tools around either! Couldn't resist that one.)

His brother, who also worked for me a while, was a leader and wanted to learn everything because he knew it made him more valuable and opened more doors when he left.

The 'New' guy is just out of high school and I enjoy watching him soak everything up and never questioning any of my methods. I also see him watch the machinery with a big smile and see the opportunity to train him, little by little.

[dan deutekom]

Originally posted by jwholden

The 'New' guy is just out of high school and I enjoy watching him soak everything up and never questioning any of my methods. I also see him watch the machinery with a big smile and see the opportunity to train him, little by little. [/B]

I to love watching a 'NEW' guy soaking up everything but I like it even better when he questions all of my methods. Then I know I have a guy that thinks even if it does kind of frustrate me at times:) Sometimes that questioning gives you a new and better method