six foot high raised patio - even possible

[rmeyers]

Good morning. Wanna be patio maker homeowner, fairly handy, very confident I could put in your basic patio at ground level. Unfortuanately my back door is about 5-6' off the ground and my wife absolutely hates the idea of a deck that would step down to a patio. My yard slopes severely so no matter what I build off the door once I turn and go about 10' I'm only 2' or so above grade. Hope that make sense.

Is it even possible to build a raised patio this high? I get the concept, build a massive retaining wall on three side and fill it in with material as I go, compacting all the way. When I finally get to the top I top off with sand and pavers and I'm done.

Sounds easy (not physically but in my head) but I imagine a retaining wall this high needs to be shored up differently than a short 2-3' wall. Also we really don't want railings so what do you do on the top? large 3' tall planters to keep the kids from falling off? Even more weight to support.

This is a great site and I would love to hear some opinions.

Thanks

[papercutter]

Anything is possible. I think in your situation, though, you'd get more bang for the buck by going with a deck- maybe a couple steps out of the house to a lower space, that then steps down to a more easily constructed patio? With what you're describing, you're looking at needing an engineer's stamp, a LOT of time properly compacting fill, and if you do planters in lieu of railings- that is eating up a ton of real estate that you just paid good money to raise 5-6' in the air. If your wife is against the idea of the "standard" pressure-treated deck, there are a lot of things that can be done to make it more of an architectural extension of the home, like fiberglass columns, wrapped fascia and skirt boards, composite or tropical hardwood decking, even iron rails.

Can it be done? Absolutely. But you may want to consider options, maybe even bring in a design pro to create the best solution.

[Stonehenge]

Being handy is certainly a good thing, and what we do is not brain surgery. Just like there aren't too many brain surgeon electricians out there, but without some years of good experience or training, it's probably not a good idea to wire up your whole house.

For something this size, I think the opportunity for failure is pretty high. There are too many little things that you just aren't aware of, and that even if I sat down and walked you through them, there'd be about a hundred more things that would come up on the site that I would have seen before but you wouldn't.

I really think something of this size, for a patio, is beyond the capabilities of even a handy weekend warrior.

That being said, if you really want to give it a try, I would recommend first doing a few things - talk to your building inspector to find out what you're going to need to do about hand rails. Some municipalities say that because it's a retaining wall, no rails are needed, while others see the common sense side of it and realize something is needed for safety. Your design will vary based on what your inspector tells you.

Next, talk to the block manufacturer - they will be able to give you some insights as to how you are going to need to build this wall, including number of courses of embedment, geogrid type, length and frequency.

If it were us doing it, we'd need an engineer's stamp on the plan for liability's sake, but since it's your work at your house, you're going to be on the hook for any damage that results from your work, to humans or property, so you can probably decide for yourself if you need one. But certainly talk to one.

And then for the project itself, because of the amount of embedment of block you will certainly need, and the amount of crushed stone fill you'll need (probably a few hundred tons) you'll need to get yourself proficient at using a mini-excavator for the excavation, as well as a skidsteer or tractor for material cartage from driveway to patio area. For compaction you will need a big machine, something in the 10,000 pounds compressive force range, to make sure that the crushed stone you are compacting is well compacted throughout (but be sure to take the pictures off the walls on the back wall of the house, just to be safe ;) ). And don't even think about using soil as backfill - guaranteed failure.

Make sure your design accounts for the block setback from course to course, and choose a block that won't require you to cut every piece to make a curve for your design (or you can, but then rent a good saw).

If there's any siding on the house where the patio will be touching, that will need to be removed and replaced with trim coil or flashing of sode kind, and unless you are butting against concrete foundation, that wall will need to have four sides, not three.

Those are the big things I can think of off the top of my head, and like I said, there's probably a few hundred more smaller things. Because of the scope of this project, I think it may be beyond what the average handyman should tackle. That's my $.02, anyway.

[rmeyers]

Guys these are great replies, thanks. If this thing was 3 feet off the ground I wouldn't be so nervous. I'm getting a quote from a contractor that thinks he can handle it. I couple of hundred tons of stone, damn! I moved 10 tons by wheel barrow last year and remember how horrible that was. Sounds like I'm heading for an angry wife (not unusual) and a nice deck stepping down to a standard patio.

[papercutter]

If I can invoke the "marriage counselor" part of what we do, can I ask what exactly it is about decks that your wife hates so much?

[VoodooChile]

Maybe I shouldn't say this but...

Damn if this isn't the third thread I've read this week where a DIY homeowner wants to undertake a nice challenging project to save a buck or to experience personal growth and may wind up killing somebody. :stretcher:

Maybe all these DIYs haven't noticed. The economy is in the tank. Many in the green industry are hurting bad, including some good folks who contribute here.

Why not do you part, and hire a competent, qualified contractor to build your patio, 3', 6', however high, and spend the free time earning a living doing what you know and do best???

I for one don't feel inclined anymore to hold hands for homeowners who want my expertise for free.

[Jimjcab]

I think I would really check out any, and all contractors thoroughly before deciding on a project of this magnatude. Papercutter is right, this really should be professionally designed and stamped, and not to insult your handyman work, but built by a contractor that has experience to handle a project this size. Really shop your contractors, this is not an everyday project that you are thinking of undertaking and alot of bad things could go wrong.
Good Luck

[zullo-design]

Is it possible to build a set of steps or maybe two with a landing out of block either srw or concrete with veneer to match your patio?

[TroubleSHOOTER]

Meyers,

I can appreciate the motivation to do things on your own. I do as much as I can around my own property. There comes a point that I have to know my limits, (I'm a scaper, not an electrican or carpenter). So know your limits.

Much of what I read in reply to you is correct. The project sounds emense regarding reinforcement/retainage and it may require an engineer stamp if it gets to high. Don't skip this if necessary, it could bite you in the long run, possibly when go to sell. Alos if you go to sell and there is a large retaining wall the looks less than accpetable (due to lack of expierence) it could hender not help sell the property. Quality work should add value, espcially done by a professional.

I work with alot of home owners who want to either get involved or save a little bit of money. In these cases I recommend they hire a professional to do the really intense and difficult work (phisically and intrique). You might ask a contractor if you could done the finish paver work on the patio. This might give the wife a way to be involved, but not push yourself over your limits. Keep in mind any professional contractor makes his money of a finished product. You might pay a little more for the base work, but in the long run you should still save some money. It will also allow some contractor to make some money and you save a little.

I'll close with this. In my company I charge consultation fee, I don't do free esimates. If it's free it isn't worth anything. A consultation is money well spent to point you in the right dirrection (to do or not to do), and if so proceeds into a good design that should have value as well. The design will help you invision a finished product and will help a contractor foresee any problems. Meet several contractors, and use refference and refferals too.

Always looking for a solution,
Troubleshooter

[Fine Edge]

It CAN be done but I have to agree with the points everyone else has made on this thread. Don't take any shortcuts on the base construction. Make sure you hire someone who knows exactly what he is doing, having it engineered probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Have you contacted any masonry companies who deal with fortified footings & walls on a regular basis?
Plus, with a 6' tall patio, you will need some type of railings. It would be absurd & illogical not to have them.
For the price you are going to pay to have your 6' tall stone / SRW patio installed, you can probably have a nice deck that steps down onto a lower patio ( which you may be able to do yourself).

Just send the wife on vacation for a few days and have it done. Then show her how much money you saved when you DIDN'T do it her way.

[Ston Wurks]

6.0ht, installed by a homeowner . . . in a word-don't