A little (lot) about me and a question

[AZTLANLC]

I have read a lot in this forum in the last couple of days, so much information that my brain is going crazy, I don't have a degree nor even finished college but I like this work so much, I love doing hardscape, I have being doing this for the last 9 years, after a month that I arrive from mexico, without even speaking the leanguage. My former boss retired three years ago and bought the business from him, wasn't a real big business tough, when I started working for him he's son was on the boat, and he was in the landscape department, that's who I learned the hardscape part from, then he moved to another state and we only did lawn maintenance, with some small landscaping projects here and there, but since I took over the company I've come to realize that I don't like mowing lawns anymore, I hired couple of guys and they're doing most of the mowing now, I mainly focus on softscape and hardscape, during the winter months I attend to some classes in college, (not last winter tought, due to the high amount of snow) this year has being real good for me, before I use to spend couple of days a week doing landscaping, now is mostly every day unless it rains and my guys are getting behind with the mowing, I have done about 8 walks so far this year and lot's of retaining walls, and installs I know 8 walkways are such a tiny number compared to some of you guys, but for me is a lot, most of the technics I use I learned from my former boss son's, but after all this time reading books and this and other forums I've come to realize that there's so much more than digging, prepare the base, and lay the pavers, reading trought all the specifications you guys have I cans understand better as to why the things are done certain ways, but I still not confident to take on bigger jobs, I have sub couple of them because I know I don't have the knowledge yet and it bothers me being that I like this job so much, I'll do wherever I need to become a Jeff, paul, Rex, Lannelle, BRL and other words a true profesional.

Sorry for the long post but I just want you guys to have an idea of why you'll be reading so dumb questions on my part.

Here is one.

What's the best method you guys have found is the fastest, easier or both to screed.

This is the way I've being doing it for the past couple years.

After I have my base then I put 1" pipes and screed my stone dust (I know I'll get yell at for this but around here the quality of the sand is just awful) then lay the paver and finally put the edging, this is where my real question begins, Do you guys use the paver restrain edging to screed?

[Stonehenge]

We don't use paver restraint as a guide for screeding. We use 1" EMT conduit (sounds like you do, too). Because we use a compactable bedding layer (stone screenings), we still compact even after we lay our pipe.

So after we lay pipe, we usually screed, then compact, 3 - 5 times before we pull the pipe, fill in the pipe lines and begin laying pavers.

Don't worry about not knowing all the answers - that's why this site was built in the first place. None of us have all the answers individually, but collectively I don't think there aren't very many things we can't figure out.

And I applaud your using the internet for your research in a non-native language. With all of the typos I have in my posts, I'm amazed that people who grew up speaking English understand me. (And I helped set up the Spanish speaking department at a local insurance company, so I understand how hard this kind of research can be.) It takes guts to make a go of it, even when you speak the language fluently.

I look forward to lots of questions, and will do what I can to provide as much info as I can.

Good luck,

Jeff

[Paul]

Don't be afraid of doing bigger job, try to think of a bigger job as a couple of smaller ones.

We are all here to learn. I don't know everything, but I'm willing to learn.

[Pelican]

AZTLANLC, I have to say I'm impressed with your grasp of English. After only 9 years of being exposed to it you use it better than many who are born and raised here. If this is an indication of your learning abilities, you are bound to be successful in business.

I put my edging down first, I use Snap-Edge exclusively. Then I use 3/4" conduit (1"od) as a guage for the sand. After laying the body of the walk or patio, I use a neat little tool I got from Pave Tech to mark the bricks for cutting. You set the tool to the width of your soldier course and it then rides on the snap-edge to mark the pavers for your soldiers. It has sped up my cutting by at least 50%.

[AZTLANLC]

Thanks for all the responses and your support.

Hey Pelican, I've seen your trucks around I also went to H.o penn to look for a cat based on your recommendation from other forum I really liked the machine but it was kind of far for me being that I'm on the other side of the river, (highland) I went with Bobcat instead because I couldn't buy all the attachmnet to beging with and they have so many for rent.

Where is a good source to get the snap edge, and also where can I get the tool your talking about for marking up the pavers.

one more questions
Is there any special tool for screeding that you use.

[AZTLANLC]

Paul, the reason I'm afraid doing bigger jobs is cause I haven't mastered the small ones yet, I still have some flaws here and there and lately a 200 sqf walk took me 4 days to complete me and other guy, it had lots of cuts and some steps tough, but most is due to the fact that I want my work to look as profesional as yours and takes a lot of time.

I look at you guys is my mentors, every time I see a photo or read a post from you I learn something new, thanks for putting your time and knowledge in this forum, I'm sure that me and lot's of people appreciate this.

[Paul]

Heres a picture of the marker we use.

[Paul]

You can order it thru your Unilock dealer or www.Pavetech.com

[Pelican]

Uh oh, new competition!:cry:


You can see the tool I use
here. (http://www.pavetech.com/newtools/quckdraw.shtm)

I buy my snap edge from Unilock, they'll discount quantities.

What I've done is cut 2x6 lumber to different lengths to screed with using the 3/4" conduit I posted earlier. I've looked at the tools available from Pave Tech for screeding and while they'd be nice to have, they're a bit pricey.

[AZTLANLC]

I'll chek with my unilock dealer to order one

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pelican
[B]Uh oh, new competition!:cry:

Not even close
:)
Actually I have a guy that wants a retaining wall, I think is out of my league, if you think you're interested PM me

[Stonehenge]

for screeding, we either use a 2x4, or an aluminum screed board. The aluminum is about $10/ft.

[AZTLANLC]

:bag:
I was searching on the web for something and one of the results was this tread, one of my very first posts, I have learned so much thanks to this forum and ICPI, that brought some nice memories, thank you Paul, Pelican, Stone, Lanelle, Bill, Rex, Joe, jwholden, Agla and all those people in this forum who have help made my business succeed, answering questions and having the time to share so much knowledge.

Now I feel confident to take most any project size, and call myself a professional.

To answer my own question posted many moon ago this is how I do my screeding now.

For a curve walk I have found that is faster to install the edge restrain and use it as screeding guide for the sand, for a larger patio or straight walk I use the conduit pipe but have made my own sandpuller, I had a regular landscape rake at my shop that was in pretty bad shape, the handle was in mint condition so I bough an aluminum L shape board (I'm not 100% sure about the name) and replaced the teeth with that I cut it to 5' and it has served as a nice rake also to spread the base, you'll get a more even results with it also, now I have like 3 different sizes and one that is 4'5" that is notched and I special use that one with the edge retrain method, here is a picture of my screed.
I have to add that the total cost fo this wa $10.00 since I already had the handle for the rake, the other were between $50 and $60 buying new rakes, I just recently found a new site whey the sell just the handles I'll post the link when I find it.

[site]

Funny that you post that picture AZTLANLC. I have been thinking about making the exact same rake, but in a 6' version for light screeding. Where did you buy the aluminum?

[Stone Art, Inc.]

We use an oak screeder beveled on two sides similar to the screeder pic posted above, heights set by a string line grid. It's the European method and we have our screeders custom made by a cabinet shop. After screeding out our sand we wet down the bed, compact then fluff. This method requires patience and true skill. For our newer guys who've relied on screed poles and straight edges we accommodate them by supplying those tools but take every opportunity to train with our screeders.

For edge restraints we install a steel-reinforced concrete toe curb that's set below grade. (See driveway)

For cuts, I'm sure our method is not exclusive, we lay out the walk/patio/drive and score the curve with a concrete saw, cut the pavers and lay the soldier course or runner. (See walkway)

I've had over 16 years experience in construction, 12 as a project manager/estimator for a heavy highway, road contractor building retaining walls (the big'ns) and installation of pavers for city/state projects. That experience in no way prepared me for the residential market and I learn every day new, and sometimes better, methods of installation. During my spare time (ha!) I make a point to educate myself on the new products available and attend as many manufacturer's seminars as possible. Don't be afraid of the big jobs, its like doing 10 small jobs in one convenient location.

[Stone Art, Inc.]

oops!:cool:

[Pelican]

site, any metal supply house should have or be able to get the aluminum. It's standard angle stock.

Good idea AZTLANLC!!

[Stonehenge]

Originally posted by Stone Art, Inc.
After screeding out our sand we wet down the bed, compact then fluff.

Stone Art - can you explain that "compact, then fluff" process? I'm not sure I've ever heard of that, but am always looking to understand other ways of handling a task.

Aztlan, I think I recall another discussion about this screed idea, and I thought it was great then, too. I just need to remember to try it out some time....

[AZTLANLC]

Pelican is right on it, where you can get that stuff I found the metal supply in the YP.
Stone, after you get one of this rakes you'll be amazed how much faster is to screed and easy on your knees and back, I'm pretty sure that the ones from pavetech are more proffesional but at this point I need other things first.

I'm also interested in the compact then fluff method.

[Stone Art, Inc.]

I searched high and low for a pic of one of my screeders, but life is never easy. I'll take a pic tomorrow. It has a long handle similar to the pic posted earlier, but instead of aluminum it's oak, approx. 24" long, 3" wide and 2" thick with bevels, it is actually the beveled edges that come in contact with the sand.

As for the compaction/fluff thing, after the sand is screeded we wet it down, compact with a vibratory plate compactor and then apply a very light dusting of sand on top of the compacted sand. The reason we 'fluff' is encourage proper interlock, coming from both the sand setting bed as well as the joint sand.

(Not too shabby fer a girl, huh!?):flowers:

[Pelican]

I'm confused!!:huh:

What is the point of compacting your sand course, and what exactly do you mean by "fluff"? When I read it I figured you were "Fluffing up" your compacted sand with a rake.

How do you "dust" your compacted sand? Does this ensure an even coating on your compacted sand?

And finally, where did you learn this procedure? I've never heard of anything similar and am curious of its origin.

[Paul]

I have to wonder too! In over 25 years of installing interlocking pavers I have never seen it done that way. Even in Europe they use screeded sand, or at least they did 30 years ago.

[Stonehenge]

Originally posted by Stone Art, Inc.
(Not too shabby fer a girl, huh!?):flowers:

I thought 'Petra' was some european derivative of Peter... :blush: Seems I get fooled with names all the time.

So as I understand your process, no pipe are used with your screed board/rake. Having it made from oak would make sense, as I would think you'd want this rake very light (where the aluminum rake, used with screed rails, has a little more mass to it, making it stick to the screed rails a little better).

If I'm on target so far, I do wonder about how your installers can hit the correct slope for the base prep when they would seem to be going by feel, or "eyeballing it". Is this method complimented by the use of lasers or some other means to verify elevations?

[Stone Art, Inc.]

Petra is a very common name in Europe, feminine for Peter, which ironically enough means Rock, the foundation on which christianity was built, and even older than that an island of stone also named Petra, and yeah, a christian rock band too. I happen to be German.

And fluffing the sand is a German and Scandinavian method. The elevations and slope are set by a grid of string lines attached to rebar. (Those elevations are set initially by a laser level and we slope 1/4" per foot or as required) It takes longer than the conduit/straight edge method, but we find it worthwhile to spend the extra time for the end result.

[Bill Schwab]

WE have a crew leader who insists on wetting the sand then compacting. He then "fluffs it with a 60" flat rake and lays the pavers. We have had numerous people builders and alike stop to ask how we got the pavers so even...Ahhhh Duh, well, if Systems Pavers, Barzanni Pavestone and Genisis would use the amount of base the the compacters we do, after a few months their drvieways would be just as level as ours are after 5 years.

This is an interesting method, and at first, I reacted like Paul, but, after they knocked a few jobs down, I got a time bearing on the work, figured a tad more for the way they do things, and the result is what counts. I have never compacted sand myself, but this leader feels comfortable doing it this way, so we let him go to it the way he knows.

[Stone Art, Inc.]

Subgrade and base prep are key to the installation process, I completely agree. Its our policy that when installing a drive, patio, walkway, any sort of paving in the overdig area of a foundation, whether the house is old or new, to place clean rock and use a j-foot compactor as builders typically do not compact when performing final gradework on any home. Our base includes 4"-6" of AB3 (Crushed limestone, 1/2"-3/4" with fines) for a typical patio, thoroughly soaked, compacted with a plate compactor and repeated. Typical driveway installs include 10"-12" AB3 over a 2" course of 2" clean rock, clean rock and AB3 are compacted with a double drum vibratory roller, AB3 compaction is done in no more than 4" lifts. ESSENTIAL.

In our view, the sand compaction adds to the stability of the end product. When you walk on a patio laid over uncompacted sand there's give under the pavers. Most folks figure that little amount of give will work itself out when compacting the pavers. We don't leave that to chance. When compacting wet sand you leave large grooves from the equipment. We level out the grooves with additional sand and leave it loose. This encourages proper interlock from both the sand setting bed and joint sand as I'd mentioned in a previous post. This method was taught to me by a man who paved highways in Denmark and in Germany where most paved surfaces are interlocking pavers. The picture below is a driveway built in 1997 by current employees of our company.

Looks purdy good.

[Stone Art, Inc.]

Sand process pics from today. Check out our screeder.