Mixing concrete in cold weather

[jwholden]

I read a post about mixing concrete in cold weather and was hoping some members could review the important stuff. I remember hearing that 26 degrees is a majic number for curing concrete and it should not go under that.

I am hoping to install granite edging on Friday and would love some tips and tricks. I spoke to a mason during the week and he said he puts anti-freeze in his concrete. Can this perevent bad things from happening below 26?

My plan of attack is to mix the concrete with anitfreeze when the temp is (barely) above freezing, cover it with plastic, hay, and one more layer of plastic for good measure, and them wait for the snow on Saturday.

I'm also hoping the ground gets a chance to thaw out before I pour the stuff. I am putting three inches of gravel below.

Any input would be appreciated! :flowers:

[Will Pacala]

I'm not sure on the concrete/anti-freeze mix. I'm not sure if it would work or not. I'm interested in finding out what to do as well. I'm somewhat clue-less.

[Bill Schwab]

For flat work, add 1% chloride to set up faster. Anti freeze only works well on mortar, as it will take too long to set up by using anti freeze. Thus, the use of chloride...

[Will Pacala]

Good thinkung. I didn't think the anti-freeze would work especially if there was any coloring added to the mortar. That would make it wetter and would take longer to freeze.

[jwholden]

OK, I think I need to work on my cement verbiage.

I will be using a portland/lime/sand mix to install the curbing. I think I should have used the term mortar and not concrete. Need to work on my vocabulary!

[Will Pacala]

OK, That should help us. Thanks. Are you going to be using the mortar as a grout in between the curbing?? any added colorings??

[jwholden]

Setting the curbing in 2-3" of mortar with a 5-6" triangle of mortar in front and 8-9" triangle in back. The curbing is 15" long and 7" wide and is being used to raise the grade. Only 9" of the granite will be above grade.

[Will Pacala]

OK. Were is this curbing going to be. A driveway, walkway or a patio??

[jwholden]

Retaining wall for patio. Patio to be installed above the side with the 9" of concrete. :)

[Pelican]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're considering pouring a footing on frozen ground? Don't do it!

The frozen earth has expanded due to the water content, you'll get settling when the frost comes out. There's also the possibility of the portion of concrete contacting the earth freezing, regardless of antifreeze or chloride. This portion will crystallize and crumble, again, leading to instability.

[jwholden]

Here's where I am on the patio.

I cut some more granite yesterday and will be ready to start with mortar after 1/2 day of prep to spread and tamp gravel under where I will be installing it. I am considering laying some rebar in the concrete to make it one massive unit, couldn't hurt. The granite that is upright is a step and the piece is 7" thick, 15" tall, and four to five feet long.

I am having a great time with this project, along with some great headaches. It is the most complex job I have done yet as well as the most expensive materiels.

I spoke with the homeowner yesterday and said I can't continue until we get some warmer weather. I discussed a worst case scenario where I would remove about 10 yards of soil stockpiled on the site and put some gravel behind the steps to act as a walk. He seemed ok with it and was very understanding about the weather.

It started snowing about two hours ago and we are supposed to get 6 - 12" of snow, but it will be warming up next week!

[Bill Schwab]

JW:

Are you using a Granite Blade for cutting? We have several we use for Granite tops on the barbecues, ranging from 14" down to 4". We also have router bits for the granite bull nosing that we use. Most of the granite counter tops are cut with a 4" grinder, but if we don't use the right blade, we will fry it in a minute!

WE used to get weathered in all the time in Illinois...Had several we shut down til spring, and then jumped right on when it thawed. That is going to look great when you are done!

[Stonehenge]

Working with that big stone is a thrill, isn't it? :D

Very manly. :flex:

[jwholden]

:D ;)

[jwholden]

Bill,

I used one T-seg from Blade Wizard to make all cuts so far. I'm suprised at how nicely the granite cuts with water and how long the blade has held up. I ordered a blade for harder material which I'll use when I burn the T-seg out. (Not to be a salesmen, but Blade Wizard has won my business - convenient, reliable, reasonably priced!)

I used a 4" angle grinder with a diamond cup to smooth out imperfections, I am amazed at how that chewed through the stone ( I'm considering making a bird bath with some of my waste).

I have been rounding all cuts with a Masher, which is a hammer that looks like a meat tenderizer. It rounds of the stone so there are no clean saw lines. I suspect the Masher would work for Segmented retaining wall block as well.

I'll have to look into the granite router bits. The stone used in the steps has rounded edges - special order costing more and taking longer to arrive. If I could do it myself I could save money and time.

I always thought granite was some incredibly hard and difficult to work with stone. However, so far it is very nice to work with and cuts and shapes quite 'easily'. Must be why it is so popular for countertops.

[Will Pacala]

So far so good, looks nice. About how much do those stone pieces weigh?? As for plantings.....??????

[Stonehenge]

My guess is about 900-1000 pounds each. Ballpark.

[Paul]

Now this is just a guess because I really don't know the exact size of the stones but the steps look to be about 5' wide x 2' deep and 7" high so they should weigh in around 1300 lbs each. Granite weighs about 185 lbs per cu ft now each quarry has it's own density so the numbers can change a bit.

[Bill Schwab]

JW:

What we do with the routed granite is somewhat the reverse of your"Masher", except in reverese. (It would be fun to have my own masher, Arrrr Arrrr arrrr) Anyway, we first epoxy a 2" wide strip of granite that we cut from the slab to the outer edge. Then after the epoxy sets, we route the edge. After that it is a series of polishing. Start with 36 grit, work to 60, then 100 then down to 3000, then polish. We are going to do our own granite tops in our kitchen next year when we gut the thing, I can buy the stuff all day long for $10.00 a sq foot...

Anyhow, where do you get a masher?

[jwholden]

Bill,

I saw one at www.granitecitytool.com but the one I got was from the place that sold the granite. It did a real nice job of rounding off the cuts and will be great for rounding off SRW units as well.

[jwholden]

The steps in that picture are 18" deep, 4' long, and 7" thick. The catolog of the supplier says they weigh 97 lbs per square foot, 582 lbs.

Give me a couple straps (and a Bobcat), a crow bar, a 30" crow bar, and a couple pieces of wood for under and I can move them around all day. I think granite is even better than Lincoln logs! :)

[Bill Schwab]

Unilock makes or rather has available, a set of scissors clamps that we used to use for setting Siena stone. Cost as about $800.00, and that was the perfect size for your granite. You could adjust them as needed. We used those on a 200 ton crane when we built a Dura Hold wall in the Chicago river. We hung a 6' high by 300 ft long section in a 10 hour day with 4 guys, that included leveling pad. Did not include sand bag time.

Anyhow, if you do alot of those it may well be worth checking into.

Thanks for the tip on your meat tenderizer, I'm going to add one or two to our arsenal...

[dan deutekom]

We actually built our own lifting clamp for this type of stone. It consists of two sets each one made of a 18" long piece of 6" angle iron with a 2" sqaure tube that is about 18" long welded to the angle iron at a right angle. To this tube is welded about 24" of chain. jThe angle iron is padded with rubber from a tire. We then took 2 grab hooks and they were installed on a steel hoop. To lift a step or large stone the two clamps are placed on the step and bound together by the grab hooks. Once you lift the grab loop it binds every thing together and you move the stone.

It is a very simple and fast way to move stone and squared rock.

[Stonehenge]

Bill, are you using a special router to route your stone? I can imagine all kinds of dust getting into and wrecking anice routing in a few hours of work.

[Bill Schwab]

Jeff:

It is just a Bosch 3 HP that you would use for wood. Typically, we get 3 years out of one then trash it. We just recover the cost of the router in the $100.00 a sq ft price for the counter tops. The router bits run $375.00-$500.00 each, and you can get a season from them.

Once again, another trade I never would have taken on if the surfer boys out here would put down their dope pipes and come to work rather than ride waves all day..It is amazing how anyone can live with what it costs by not returning calls, but, different topic for different day!

[jwholden]

Over the past two days we recieved around sixteen inches of snow. Me thinks this one is going to have to wait till spring. :(

[Stonehenge]

Oh - I must have misunderstood - you do countertops on a regular basis? If you're applying epoxy to the last 2" of a countertop, can't you see that seam?

I'm thinking I must not be getting the whole picture. :huh:

[Will Pacala]

I've also used something like this to lift stones like that. It gives you added sight and positionig.

[jwholden]

I sent my clients this E-mail today about their patio. We have had below freezing tempuratures every night and two snow storms since December 5th. I will call them to go over the situation tonight but still feel like a shmoe sending a message like this.

--------------

Dear _____,

I stopped at your house yesterday to check on the patio. The new French doors look great! Because of freezing temperatures, it is best to suspend work on your project until warmer weather arrives.

I will clean up your yard next week so you will have a neat house for Christmas. I will remove all tools, organize the materials, remove the excess dirt, and create a temporary walk to get to the new steps. Your project will be my first in the spring, as soon as we have consistent warm weather.

I apologize for the delay and would like to ensure you that I will complete the project as planned. Your new outdoor room is going to be gorgeous!

I will call tonight to confirm you received this E-mail and please call if you have questions or concerns. You can reach me in the office at _____ or on my cell phone at _____.

Thank you,

[Will Pacala]

That's a good move. I don't think that it would be agood idea to work in the snow like this. Especially with concrete and mortar. Were the clients understanding about the deal?? Will you keep those stones at the site or bring them back till the springtime??

[Stonehenge]

JW - communicating this to them is great - make sure they are the type to frequently check email. I've found that most of my clients don't check email anywhere near as often as I do, so if I tell them I'll be there in two days via email, they are often surprised when I show up. :woot:

[Paul]

Why not call them on the phone? Weather has much to do about how well work can be done and they should understand that delays like this can be expected.

[jwholden]

Paul,

I did call them to confirm that they got the E-mail and make sure everything was ok. Mr. client wasn't extremely talkative, but he's pretty quiet anyway. Most communication with this client has been through E-mail. However it still sounds better in person and I was hoping take some weight off of my conscience as well.

Jeff,

I could never imagine not making the obligatory night or two before heads up call to let the client know I'm coming. Only sending an E-mail, now that's living on the edge!

[jwholden]

Will,

I'm going to leave the stones EXACTLY where they are. If someone figures out how to quietly walk off with a 500 lb stone god bless them. There are also four pallets of bluestone on the site. Hey, atleast everything will be there when I start working again.

[Will Pacala]

True, How were the homeowners with leaving stuff there?? If I were you I would take the equipment back though. You probably already did or are going to but....

Well it sure sounds like despite the weather the project is moving along just fine and everyone and thing is happy.

[Stonehenge]

For me, I almost think that leaving the materials there, though it might be a bit unsightly, might help serve as a commitment to the client. Just a small added measure to make them feel comfortable.

So many people have heard so many horror stories about contractors, that the more you can do to put their mind at ease, the better things are.

So I like the idea of leaving the materials there, so long as they are neat and orderly.

JW, I didn't mean to say that my modus operandi was to send emails about work dates and hope they got them. Just that I've sent emails to clients for other things (like scheduling appointments), and I won't get a return email for 3-4 days.

[Will Pacala]

I agree that materials are a good thing to leave there on site. But never leave a macuine or two for more than aweek or so. It is better to have it if you need it. You don't have to bother the clients when you suddenly arrive to pick it up. And there is less of a chance that the machine will become stolen or even damaged.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

I knew I must have been reading something wrong for that to have been your obligatory modus operandi.

All,

I feel as good as I can about the situation. The guy wasn't exactly bubbling over with the prospect, he obviously would have preferred to have the patio completed. However, mother nature and the complexity of the project won!

[jwholden]

I spent two days last week carting away the spoils and 'organizing' the site. I decided to put some bluestone down as a temporary walk so my clients don't track mud into the house all winter.

I read a post by Lanelle about working when the weather makes it challenging. I arrived at the job and the ground was frozen solid with about 4-5 inches of frost. It got to around 45 to 50 degrees both days I was there and the place turned into a 1/2 ice 1/2 mud mess.

Here is where the job will be until spring,

[jwholden]

This is a close up of the cuts I have been making to create the radius in the granite. I am hoping to have a 1/2" gap between pieces. I used my new masher to roughen the lines from the saw cuts. Those pieces of granite are 7 inches thick and 15 inches long. All cuts were made with a 12" TS350 chop saw. Needless to say, it took a while.

[jwholden]

I had to let my regular help go due to the poor weather and was forced to work with whoever I could find. Thank God the truck is an automatic. :D

[dan deutekom]

JW

I think you have left your clients in pretty fair shape considering the season has closed in on you. I praise you for making their walk way usable for the winter and once there is a little snow on it and shoveled it will even look finished:D I think they will appreciate your efforts.

[Will Pacala]

Nice cuts and even nicer looking dog. What's the name? How were the clients with having the walkway installed?? Will you be charging them for the bluestone path??

[jwholden]

The dogs name is Madison.

The wife was bubblling with joy to see the walk installed, even if it is only temporary. Did I charge them to install the walk? Sort of and no. I will be using the bluestone on the patio in the spring and will incorporate the stonedust and process into the base. It cost me my time. Will they recommend me to their friends who admire their bluestone/granite patio, landscape, and landscape lighting? I can only hope.

[Will Pacala]

Oh ok sounds like it went over very well with the clients and half of the materials are already there for that patio. Should be great. Another thing, maybe you already told us but.....will there be any plants around the bluestone walkway and the blocks??

[Stonehenge]

JW - I tried to find that 'masher' from the site you referenced - is that a name you made up for it, or is that really what it's called?

I think you made a good call making the walk at least serviceable until spring - I did the same things on those steps I had to finish up - I finished one step, and rounded up the materials neatly in a corner for the second step, to go in next season.

[Bill Schwab]

They are available through Bosch, and used on the mid sized roto hammers.

[Stonehenge]

Oh. :blush: This whole time I was thinking it was a hand-held thing, like a hammer. :doh: We have a decent sized Bosch hammerdrill, so I'll check locally for it. Thx. :D

[jwholden]

The company I bought it from called it a masher. There are some that are made to fit on rotary hammers as well that do the same thing. I looks exactly the same as a meat tenderizer. I'll post a photo when I recover from the bug that has been going around my parts. I also want to show off my new pressure washer from northern. :)

[Will Pacala]

I've got their catalog. They have some very nice stuff there. I've gotten some things over the years and was very impressed. Hope you get better.

[jwholden]

It looks something like this,

masher :

[Will Pacala]

Looks like it can do some damage!!. It reminds me of a common kitchen tool. The meat tenderizer I think. What do you really use that for?? Thanks for the picture! One other thing that comes to mind in this thread is a attacment for your cordless or corded drill. It has a long shaft and a few baffle/paddles at the end and looks like part of a mixing bowl. It's usually used for paint and spackle but I often use it to mix together large batches of mortor or cement when a more liquidy solution is needed. I've seen them in a bunch of catalogs but I got mine at Lowes a few years ago.

[Stonehenge]

Oh, so it IS a hammer. Guess I wasn't in left field after all. Looks like about a 2# hammer. That'd do the job nicely. And I hear you about that bug - got it here too, after visiting with the family germ factories over the holidays. Hope you're feeling better. :)

[Will Pacala]

A friend of mine just came back from a yearly trip to California to visit family. They said that two kids in the neighborhood had died from the FLU and one other person had it! What a scary thought of losing half your development ot a common disease or sickness. California has had it's fair share of tragedy this year (or last). Wildifres, floods, Landslides, Disease.

Aside from that.....I just picked up one of those hammers and a good 'ol brick hammer as well. Both are very nice tools. Nice handle and head. the major sellijng point was the great ballance between handle and head. Nice tools. I bought them at Lowes of all places!!!

[jwholden]

We're back on the patio project. Progress is coming slow but steady. This patio is going to look great and I'm using every skill I have, and then some, putting it together.

The patio is about 15" above grade and I am considering whether to put a pipe behind the wall to the left or not. The patio will be pitched at about 1 1/2 %. I have never installed a drain pipe in a raised patio and am very worried about a hole in the geotextile around the pipe causing my patio to sink. Any members input would be appreciated.

[Bill Schwab]

JW:

If you do that, use SDR-35, or Schedule 40 with the hole facing down. Any time I have seen a rasied patio settle it is usually behind the wall, within the first year of being done, and if the installer used that black snakie jakeie junk, and it has collapsed. It would help your base keep dry with the rain and snow that will occur where solid gravel is going to hold moisture, freeze and crack...At least in theory anywho....

[diginahole]

If you put the tile in before the fabric you don't need to poke a hole in your fabric. Do you still have a place to daylight the end of the pipe? If not I'd do without it.

[jwholden]

I can get schedule 40 pipe with holes in it? Sounds cool. :)

Bill, are you recommending installing the pipe, holes down, with no layer of clear gravel or geotextile around it?

I would love to say forget the pipe, and may still go that route. However, I would also love this patio to last and would despise having to reset any of those 600 lb stones with 800 lbs of cement around them. That would really STINK!

[Stonehenge]

Seeing how you've laid a pretty thick bed of concrete around the perimeter, I'd be inclined to not forego the drainage, otherwise water may have the chance to just sit and sit. November, it'll be freeze, that, freeze, thaw.

[Bill Schwab]

JW:

You put the holes down so if water purculates up, it fills the holes first and takes the water away to daylight. Make a sandwich out of clear gravel around the pipe, use 1" minus for infill. If you use schdule 40, you need to make the holes. nothing a 1/2" drill can't handle.

[jwholden]

I think I've got it. I'm leaning toward laying the fabric under the pipe, adding gravel, pipe, gravel, to keep base material from leaking into the drain.

Something like this

[Paul]

Long time not posting here but, I have a question for you JW...........
Why did you install the stones with a concrete curb? It's gives you no frost heave protection and still allows some lateral movement.
A neater and more controlling way would have been to trench a concrete footing, leaving exposed rebar to drill into the granite then set the stones on a thin mortar bed (to adjust the height) and epoxied the bars into the stones.

[Stonehenge]

JW, that's kinda how I was thinking.

Paul, how far would you go into the stone with the rebar? I can see aligning the holes with the rebar might be difficult. And how often? 1 bar per foot?

[Paul]

I would like to see 2 bars per stone. As for the bars I would use 5/8" or 3/4" bar at least 4" into the stone and the same or deeper into the concrete. I would drill the stone first then use the rebar in the stone to mark the concrete for drilling.

[jwholden]

Paul,

I've been wondering where you've been.

I went with the concrete curb because frankly it's the best I could come up with. I considered the footing idea (though I was thinking along the line of Rebar popping out the back of the footing and tied to a horizontal rebar in the concrete at the back or front of the stone). Drilling the granite and epoxying the rebar never would have crossed my mind, though I'll send you a pm for more info on that before the next job.

I have a 2 pieces of rebar under the granite which is set in 2" of cement. There is a minimum of 3" of 3/4" clear gravel under that. The concrete in the front and back of the granite has rebar running through in the middle of the concrete as well.

Too often I see walls like that pushed over by gravity, the concrete monolith is there to prevent that force from tipping the stone. None of the concrete will be visible when the job is completed.

[Paul]

I just was thinking of all that great looking granite buried under all that concrete :( .......................


If you look at the photo of the mill stone we installed at the river park we did this winter http://www.groundtradesxchange.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=807&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 you'll under stand a bit more of what can be done.

[jwholden]

Paul,

I posted the picture and my process of installation thinking there may be differing opinions of how the job could be done. It's a great way to exchange ideas! ;)

[jwholden]

I installed the pipe on part of the patio today. I ended up going with 4" schedule 40 after trying, and aborting, greenpipe or carlon(sewer pipe). The schedule 40 kicks but as far as ease of installation and availability. Big orange has a ton of that stuff! Thanks Bill.

I found myself staring at the granite thinking about epoxying it to a footing several times. Sounds more and more appealing.

[Stonehenge]

Got anymore progress shots? I'm interested to see the pavers you selected and how they coordinate with the granite.

BTW, kudos for trying something you hadn't done before. For me that's part of the fun. We've never done anything quite like what you're tackling in this project.

[jwholden]

Jeff,

Here's a shot of where I am these days.

I have learned that installing a 5' long piece of granite is a piece of cake, however a 4' radius with a pitch is a bear.

Overall, I'm happy with the way the project is coming out. My clients are very pleased as well.

[Stonehenge]

Hey, I love how the bluestone is coming out. :cool2: I can see where 2-3 of the cuts you made in the path probably took you as long as the rest of the cutting you've had to do.

This one should be a portfolio show-stopper when it's done. :camera:

[jwholden]

When I first made the swoop in the walk I tried measuring from the curve on the right in the same direction as the cut. It came out better (and the walk didn't get thinner) by keeping the tape paralell to the steps and marking every 6 inches and connecting the dots.

I made the cut with my 4" angle grinder with a blade I got as a FREE gift from Garden State Diamond (love that guy). The blade cut through the stone about 1/2 way and then I dug a little under the waste side and a few good wacks with a malllet and it snapped off.

I can't wait to take some shots with the plantings, I'll be putting a big boxwood in each radius and I'm thinking of some Fairy Roses on either side of the stairs.

[jwholden]

I've completed three walls on the patio and will begin laying the infill this week. I met with my clients tonight and got a greenlight on the full plantings around the patio, with some minor changes.

Although the patio part of this project is a break even for me, the experience I've gained is priceless along with the pictures I'll get when the project is completed. It's been a pleasure working for these people as well.

I'll have to post some shots of the completed project in the private gardens (was that the shameless plug you wanted Jeff?).

[Stonehenge]

I'll take any plugs I can get, but no, no fishin' going on here.

[jwholden]

Moving along...

[Stonehenge]

I have a question - I'm guessing you aren't going to mortar the joints, because you're installing a flexible pavement. Why gap the stones 3/8" or 1/2", when you can make the seams tight?

[jwholden]

Excellent question.

Bluestone is never (unless someone knows a better supplier than me) cut to exact dimensions. I figure the pieces in 6" increments but they are usally anywhere from 1/4 to 3/4" (extreme) short. I would have to cut every piece of that stone before placing it to go tight (for hours and hours), though it would look pretty cool.

I measured the patio to exactly 18.5 by 23' INSIDE the granite. The seams have become whatever is neccesary to make the bluestone fit that space.

Short answer, that's the way it's done in my parts. It gives it a rustic feel.

When at the supply yard I got a look at some bluestone with a thermal top. That was some sweet material!!!

[Stonehenge]

I may have to try some of that 'flamed' or 'thermalized' bluestone in the hardscape work at my house - I believe we had a thread about it back in the early days.

What will you be using for the joints? Polymeric sand?

[jwholden]

In my parts we pack stonedust into the joints to lock the stones. A little polymer in the mix wouldn't hurt, but not going that route on this job.

Funny story about stonedust. When we filled the walls in the patio I tried to mix the stonedust I set my temporary walk on last fall with the 3/4 process I brought in to fill the walk. While hitting it with a compactor with 8500 lbs of force it got a jelly like consistency. Turns out there were some pockets of stone dust 3-4" thick that were waterlogged and wouldn't compact. I had to dig them out to get a solid base.

The smoothness of the thermal bluestone amazed me as well as the consistency of the blue.

I welcome other members input on bluestone.

[site]

Quarries cut bluestone to provide 3/8" gaps. That way it works well on mortar jobs. I'm not sure who runs the saws at the quarry, or who is supposed to be doing quality control on the measurements, but it's pretty bad sometimes. It is possible to re-saw every stone in a patio, but who would pay for that? We use about 80% of what comes off the pallet sizewise, and re-cut the other 20%. We recut the oversized ones with a cutoff saw after they have been set in place.

[jwholden]

Moving along...

Site,

Out of curiousity what is the 'optimal' size you shoot for with your bluestone (if it's not a trade secret). With 3/8" gaps you would end up cutting all stone to 3/4 " less than the 'dimension' of the stone. Most of the stone I have is around 1/2" ' short. IE 11.5, 17.5, 23.5 etc. I only had to cut a few that were closer to a round number or not square.

[jwholden]

Almost there...

[Stonehenge]

Looks great! I do hope you haven't been working solely on this project since early April - either that or I hope you're charging an arm and a leg!